Horace Gill

Nathan: This is Nathan Carpenter from Oberlin College. I'm with Ify Ezimora and Santiago Roman, and we're with Mr. Horace Gill--

Mr. Gill: Horace Gill, yes.

Nathan: --Mr. Horace Gill, doing an oral history interview today and I just wanted to state for the record and on video as well that your participation in this interview is completely voluntary, and you're welcome to end the interview at any time. And thank you so much for doing this with us.

Mr. Gill: No problem.

Nathan: Great, so I guess I was wondering if you could start out by briefly talking about what this reunion means to you, why you've come back, and what you're looking forward to this weekend.

Mr. Gill: Well it means a lot -- this will be my first reunion. I didn't get a chance to make the other ones because I was in the military and also worked for the government, so this is sort of important because it was a historical (01:00) 00:01:00class to us. You know? We was kind of together for a long time, and we was the first class after integration and segregation to actually attend our prom night right here in this hotel. And we kind of wrote that history also of the school to be left for people down the line -- younger generation -- to get some of that history. The things that those classes -- and our class -- went through. And that's why it's very important to me, becoming participating and to make this very successful for you guys also.

Nathan: Can you talk a little bit about that prom and what that was like for you at the time? As a...you were a senior in high school?

Mr. Gill: Yes. It was exciting because it was the first class (02:00) after -- 00:02:00the segregation was in '65, but we was the first class to be integrated and to go in places which was open to all mankind. So we was very excited, it was the first one in history not to have the prom at the high school. So we was the first class to go outside the high school to actually have prom and to be here in the Battle House was a great feeling. I mean, a lot of accomplished men that history brung that it was open for us and we was the first class that went down in history to attend the prom outside.

Nathan: And so one thing that we hear a lot from alums that we speak with is how much Mobile County Training School meant to them growing up, and I'm curious if that was your experience as well (03:00) and if you could speak to that a little bit.

Mr. Gill: Oh yes, definitely! My parents went to the high school. Matter of fact, it was the oldest high school in the whole state of Alabama and founded in the 1870s. And all my aunts and uncles graduated from that high school, so it was one of the well-known high schools around, because we only had like four or five here. And it's kind of like a family. Everybody knew -- even though you went to another high school, everybody knew each other and so all of my relatives and uncles and... It was a lot of history there. And further down the line I'm gonna be talking and give you a little bit more into the history even though my family and one of the families that's well-known in the city of Prichard, or Mobile, you know? And so, like Anderson, his family, (04:00) we all 00:04:00knew each other. We was just like a whole big family community. But for the school not to exist no more as a high school, it was a lot of history at that school. So we had a lot of professional football players came from that high school, professional baseball players like Tommie Agee, Cleon Jones, Larry Shields. They played professional, and we had some academic people that worked for one of the first colonels in the Air Force that graduated from a couple of classes before me. And her job was over all the nursing in the United States Air Force, you know, so it was a lot of accomplishment came from that school.

Nathan: So you mentioned you were talking about your family and their history with the community. Did you want to go more into that? (05:00)

Mr. Gill: Oh yeah, my family was the Crenshaw family -- it's a big family. My grandfather, he actually came -- his grandfather -- I mean, his father lived to be 113 years old. His dad actually came over on one of the last slave ships that was docked here. In one of the last slave ships that was found here -- he came over on one of those, and besides that, my family contributed a lot to the military. And, matter of fact, I had an uncle, he got killed in 1953 in the largest plane crash of the Air Force. 230 people got killed, and my mother had another brother which was William Crenshaw, (06:00) and he died -- he was a 00:06:00captain, green beret, and he actually got killed in the army also. And her third brother actually, he was in the Air Force and he passed away. So it was a lot of history of that contribution to the military. And myself, I spent 25 years in the Air Force, and I actually worked as a criminal intelligence for one of the guys who's one of the FBI directors -- ex-FBI director who's doing an investigation now.

Mr. Gill (Addendum 6/24/2020): So I used to work under his operation on the west coast before he became director of the FBI at the headquarters in Washington DC, so a lot of history from the beginning when he was special prosecutor and he rose up to be director of the FBI. He contributed a lot to the government and to the country. And to see where we are today and all we have accomplished from the beginning, so we're gonna maintain that history. The leadership that I received under his leadership and the United States Air Force.

Mr. Gill: That's what gave me the leadership that I (07:00) didn't have to 00:07:00enlist in the military, but I figure I'm supposed to contribute something

Mr. Gill (Addendum 6/24/2020): ...back to the community and the school which I graduated from, which was Mobile County Training High School . And so my grandfather was very well-known in the community and neighborhood. Our family was an original family that settled in the community of Plateau, Alabama, which is Africatown now, Magazine is another community, and Prichard, Alabama. The Crenshaw family was very well known in the community and neighborhood. We contributed a lot to the neighborhood. I remember when my grandfather used to have a vegetable truck, and go around the neighborhood selling vegetables and different things on his vehicle. He gave out credit to the neighborhood and sometimes donated food to the neighborhood. He always collected less than he contributed. He retired from Scott Paper Mill in the 80s, after that, that's when he took on the job of selling vegetables, and that was mostly to help the community out. He had three sons, which all served in the military. His first son named Horace, he was killed in the largest plane crash in 1953, when 280 military soldiers died in Japan, when the airplane was taking off. His second son died in Vietnam in 1967 and he was a captain in the United States army in the Green Beret. We happened to read his will and knew he wasn't coming back. The third son, he served in the US Air Force, and he has passed away since, several years ago. My grandmother, she died at the age of 69 after the first two sons died. They said she never recovered from the stress from the both sons who died. (08:00) That is why we were a very close knitted community, most of all 00:08:00the students that grew up together and graduated together, and some that came back and became teachers at the same school. Some went to professional sports. And one young lady, named Grace Agee, she was a one star general in the Air Force, she became the head of the nursing program in the US Air Force.

Mr. Gill: And so my grandfather was very well known in the area. Everybody knew him. I mean, he had a vespa truck, he used to go all around the neighborhood and just give out food and stuff, you know? He didn't ever collect that much money, he was retired from Scott Paper mill, and that was one of the largest paper mills in the city here. And on my father's side, he worked for International Paper Company, and my father actually was a union leader, which was -- I think he was the president of the union, and Joe Womack's (09:00) father was also... 00:09:00And they made a lot of changes. They went on strike to demand equal rights, you know, during that time. After the 1965 Segregation Act was passed that demanded fair wages and the same wages. So that strike for nine days not only helped his family, which was us, plus he had the community and the whole southern states of the South, which was Alabama, Arkansas, Mississippi, and... I'mma say Alabama, Arkansas, Mississippi, and Tennessee that was the southern craft paper company, which was international and which brung wages up to the average wage of about $40,000 a year. Which not only (10:00) helped the economy here, but, you know, 00:10:00was a great change for all the family life. Parents worked over there, so there was a lot of accomplishment there.

Nathan: And you said this was your grandfather who had that vegetable truck you were talking about?

Mr. Gill: Yes.

Nathan: Was that in Africatown?

Mr. Gill: Yes. He used to be all over there in Africatown. During that time, they called it... Let's see...I had a date but... They changed the name to Africatown in...must've been in the 70s. Cause they used to call it -- oh! Like Prichard and Mobile area, that's what they used to call it. Plateau. They used to call it Plateau. P-L-A-T-E-A-U. And they actually, when I came back from overseas, (11:00) they actually changed the name to Africatown, so...

Nathan: So you grew up knowing it as Plateau?

Mr. Gill: Yeah. It was Plateau for years and years, and I guess after -- I came back from Vietnam in '69 -- no, '70. And they had a change. You know, coming back to your area, cause I stayed gone almost six or seven years. And when I came back, they had changed the name.

Nathan: Did you see combat in Vietnam?

Mr. Gill: Oh yes. Yes. I'm a veteran of three wars, so I actually seen Vietnam, Desert Storm, and Desert Shield.

Nathan: Can you talk a little bit -- you mentioned there's a really, kind of strong military history in your family and you're also a veteran as well -- kind of what that has (12:00) meant for you, or what it meant for you growing up 00:12:00versus what it means for you now.

Mr. Gill: I encourage -- it meant a lot to me, you know, I think it's an experience that I think every young man should have a choice to...just to see what it is and to be a part of a military family. It's not according to me, it's to what you go in. The Air Force is more education, you know, when you actually get out the Air Force after four years, you automatically have a 'a degree' from the university of the Air Force. And in the army, it's more like ground accomplishment. But it's such a big change in the military, you can see they kind of operate (13:00) like a city within a city. And so actually, people can 00:13:00actually go on that base and never have to come off cause everything you need on that is there. They have Chili's restaurants, they have Outbacks on the base, they have hotels like Holiday Inn's and all that. That is around, by the base, by the military. And so when I first went in, it was more of a combat atmosphere, but now it's -- the Air Force is something like a college atmosphere. But the army, everybody says the Air Force is kind of spoiled brats, you know? We probably are, but I think it's whatever your goal is and what you looking for, and I think it can give you some foundation, and that's what it actually gave me. Foundation. Cause I actually went in when I was seventeen, and I think it was a great experience (14:00) I ever had, because I ended up with -- 00:14:00I used to be a firefighter, that was my first career field. My second career field was communication, and with the communication and I was actually putting up all cable and telephones and all that. And my third career field, I was a jack mechanic. I actually worked on the C-5 aircraft. During that time, it was the largest plane in the world, so... And my fourth career field was criminal intelligence, which I went back to Quantico -- the FBI academy -- for eight weeks of schooling and doing different things. From 9/11. That's when 9/11 happened. It was a great experience for me, even in combat situations in Vietnam, it was just like (15:00) we was mostly supporting aircrafts -- fighting 00:15:00planes and fire protection for the base there. We'd never get hit by fighter pilots, by rockets, by bombs, anything like that. And then the same thing, Desert Storm, Desert Shield. So we worked as a group with the combat group. And the last job I had as a criminal intelligence and I was actually working with the different law enforcement on the team -- consists of different agencies, with the military and with the Air Force and army. So, yeah.

Nathan: And so is that -- it was right after you graduated from Mobile County Training School?

Mr. Gill: When I graduated from Mobile County Training, my first job was a firefighter.

Nathan: Okay.

Mr. Gill: Yeah, and I did that almost five years.

Nathan: And then you went into the Air Force? (16:00)

Mr. Gill: No, no, that was--

Nathan: Within the Air Force?

Mr. Gill: Yes. That was the job in the Air Force. Air Force is a technical branch of service, so whatever your career field is, you have to go to school for it. And so, actually from the school, then you go perform on your job. And actually on your job, you have to go through apprenticeship, you have to go through a specialist, and you have to go through a supervisor. Of course, you constantly have to go back and forth to school. And so, I was an instructor...two years for the Air Force fire protection school, and so all I did was, people come in straight from the base to training, they come to the school there and learn firefighting, and then they go to the base. Wherever they're stationed at.

Nathan: And did you keep in touch with your classmates as you kind of moved into your career?

Mr. Gill: I kept in touch with some of them (17:00), and every time we came back 00:17:00home I ran across some of my classmates. And I actually -- it was like four of five of us went in together, and every time we came home we made contact with each other and kind of find each other through the career...probably about twenty years. And we see 'em, you know, talk. Like Anderson, I talk to him probably a couple times a month. He always email people and kind of makes you talk, *laughs* kind of keep in touch with the whole class. He was kind of the glue of the whole class, keeping everybody together. And he was actually the class president and he was the -- kind of that same leadership role he used to do, he's making sure that all this happened. And he actually put all the people together.

Nathan: So how'd you end up living in Texas?

Mr. Gill: *laughs* I have lived some of everywhere. (18:00) I moved to Texas 00:18:00probably three years ago. Before then I was living in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Before then, California. I was in the Bay Area -- that's where my last military job was. I was actually working in the federal building of San Francisco. It was military and civil service, so I kind of moved around every chance I got, so even in my military career, I probably was station from Korea to Germany to Vietnam to -- back to Germany. Been in Amsterdam, been to...I was TDY a lot. TDY means 'temporary duty'. And temporary duty is anything under six months. So my specialist, (19:00) they kind of moved me around a lot. So they sent me here and 00:19:00sent me there, you know? And actually, when they was bringing computers up -- upgrading computers on the base -- I was with a team doing that also. So they would call, you know, the cap five and all that stuff. So we was actually doing that, so that's how I got a chance to move around a lot. But when I actually got out, California got too hot, so I moved to Albuquerque. And when I moved there in 2005, probably the population was two hundred and fifty thousand and I seen it grow to...you know, a million people, so one morning I said, "it's too crowded here now, let's move." So we moved to Texas. Small town called Harker Heights, next to Fort Hood. You ever heard of Fort Hood? Largest base in the world -- actually over twenty thousand troops. (20:00) And so most of the army 00:20:00deployed people from that base, you know, and they go on missions.

Nathan: Is that part of why you decided to be in that area?

Mr. Gill: Well, my benefits. See, when you retire from the military, you get benefits the rest of your life, so either on the base or either off the base. But a lot of the benefits you have is shopping on the base, doing different things on the base. You get that lifetime, and it saves a lot of money, so you actually probably saving fifty percent versus shopping outside the base, so...

Nathan: And so when you were doing all this travelling around and the short term jobs throughout your run, was your wife coming with you to all those different jobs?

Mr. Gill: Sometimes she did, sometimes she didn't. To the friendly areas, yes, to the non-friendly, (21:00) no she wasn't allowed. But she did a lot of 00:21:00travelling. Lots of travelling.

Nathan: How did y'all end up meeting?

Mr. Gill: Hm?

Nathan: How did you and your wife end up meeting?

Mr. Gill: Oh, I actually met my wife in Oakland, California. And we was at a McDonalds, *laughs* and then I kind of talked to her, got her number, and then called her up and we kind of dated for a year, and then we got married. She had never been out -- you know, she's an Oakland person, she'd never been outside of the state of California. And I started taking her places, and she actually had a chance to see what life was in the Air Force. And then, when I got out, retired (22:00) from the Air Force, I worked for the department of the army as a fire 00:22:00chief. I was a fire chief for the local government base, and they closed the base down after probably about fifteen years and I retired again. During that time, they closed about probably fifty percent of the bases in California. And they gave me a chance to retire a second time, and I said, "let's move." And so we ended up in Albuquerque, a beautiful city. Beautiful. You ever heard of the balloon festival? Oh yeah, ten thousand balloons in the sky at one time. That's actually two weeks -- every October, from the first to the fifteenth of October, you can see all shapes, all types, all balloons representing all the countries. They actually come and it's a big event, but after that it got too crowded, (23:00) so we're in a small town now.

Nathan: To kind of go back, I've been curious in you talking about, for example, your grandfather's vegetable truck and then also talking about what that community in the military meant to you as well. And so I'm curious if from your youth in Plateau or your experience at Mobile County Training School, if there are other examples of that community there that stood out to you kind of like that vegetable truck.

Mr. Gill: Yeah, like the history of my grandfather, I used to observe him doing a lot of things. He was a lot of a people person, you know? He really liked people and back then your work meant a lot. As a kid growing up, I used to observe a lot and I hung around my grandfather a lot just to...he did all kinds of stone work. He used to, on the side, (24:00) besides working at the paper 00:24:00mill and running the vegetable truck, he used to do a lot of brick stone work. You know, like foundation work. And then I used to be with him a lot and just ride with him on the vegetable truck, and how people come up and, "Oh, Mr. Crenshaw, I don't have no money today but I would love to have this or that." And he said, "get it." And everybody paid on their honesty, you know? You didn't keep no books or nothing, and then they actually...but everybody knew him. See, growing up then, it was like a family. Everybody knew each other; you didn't lock your doors, you kept your doors unlocked. Everybody on the street, even...they can discipline you, they can...they see you're doing something, they'll say -- they'll discipline you and say, "I'm gonna tell your grandfather." "I'm gonna tell your mother." "I'm gonna tell your dad." And so it was a (25:00) close-knitted community, and everybody looked out for each other. 00:25:00Today, you have a neighbor, you don't even know 'em for the whole time you're there, but see back then it wasn't like that. It was just like we all was one big family. And I think that's -- after years, I look at, observe my kids now; that is not there. I know I raised them like that, but it's not there, it's just a whole different time, you know? But I want them to see what it was like back then and how people cared about each other. How, if we needed -- if anybody needed anything, they'd come over and say, "could I borrow some flour?" or some sugar, or some...whatever, you know? You had it. It was there. "Can I get a couple of dollars?" That's the way it operated. And my mother 'nem, it was (26:00) -- let me see... It was actually nine of them, and she only had three 00:26:00brothers and she lost all of them, and the sisters. And they was very close. They always looked out for each other, and that's the same way today. And in my family, it was eight people: four boys and four girls. And you see it there, but it's not like it used to be. And so people can see the kind of close-knitted history. Even in the school there -- at Mobile County Training High School -- it was the same atmosphere. The teachers was like your parents. I mean, what they said, you knew they look out for your best. And close-knit, the students were close-knitted. That's why when I went just to see (27:00)-- I knew...I hadn't 00:27:00seen Anderson three years, I think, but I knew him right away. And we was talking and he said, "come on, let me show you something." Some of my classmates I haven't seen in fifty years. Fifty years. I have talked to some of them, but I haven't seen some of them in fifty years. And I ended up in the Air Force with some of my classmates. Now that's very small.

Actually, a young lady named Cora Coleman, she was actually stationed with me at Travis Air Force base in California, so I say what a small world, you know? We grew up together. So some of my classmates actually got out the military and actually live in Sacramento, in the Bay Area now, so... It was a very close-knitted community. That's what my grandfather -- kind of the foundation that he laid. I mean, everybody knew him. (28:00) And they knew the good for 00:28:00him. You know, so he helped everybody, so that was something that encouraged me to be the same way, and today I try to help people. Me and my wife, we've taken in a family in Albuquerque. We looked at 'em on TV, during the news when they said a family needed some help, and so we just like...adopted those kids, and they became a part of our life. And right today they actually grown kids now, they call up, "hi grandpa, how are you?" You know, and we still talk, they come to visit, and that's what it's all about, you know? And that's one thing the military did. The military...you didn't feel no racial or nothing. It's always been like that, the military. It's like a big family, (29:00) and we felt the 00:29:00closeness in the military, we could... I mean, it's there. That's why I love the atmosphere, that's why I always -- they had to put me out. That's how much I liked it, so... And it's a pattern today, if people just knew how the military really operates and the closeness and the family, and what the uniform means to each other, you know? Not what some people think it does. It's an atmosphere that helped people to live together, you know? And you can grow as a big family. And then me -- someone [whose] family is at home and they're overseas, we take them people in, we kind of look after them. We call them up, like right today, my next door neighbor, (30:00) her husband is a warrant officer. We took to them 00:30:00just like that and we started watching out for 'em. I email them right now, when I'm here, and say, "hey, how's everything going?" Her husband is going to leave, going overseas coming up January. I said, "hey, we got the girls. We'll take -- you know, you need to do something..." But that's the family life there, so it's a great feeling.

Nathan: Real quickly, I don't wanna keep you too long; I'm curious if there are other people you remember from your childhood that were kind of like your grandfather -- kind of had this big presence in the community and everybody knew them. You were mentioning teachers as well, and if there's anyone who kind of comes to mind who played that kind of role.

Mr. Gill: Oh yes, one guy named Mr. Leon up the street from me. He took to me. He was an Air Force guy. He was Chief Master Sergeant Air Force reserve (31:00), 00:31:00and I used to see him and he had a love for airplanes, and he actually built me a small plane as a kid coming up. And I used to go to his house all the time and he showed me how to... He's very gifted at his hands and he made a lot of aircraft models and tools and things. And I used to listen to him a lot and that was my beginning for the Air Force there cause we used to talk all the time and he was a great person that contributed to my life.

And also, I had an uncle who owned several cleaners here -- dry cleaners in Mobile -- and he actually had me working for him. And so I kind of learned the cleaning business and he tried to get me to stay around, but not me. I wanted to travel. All I'd seen as a little kid, I wanted to always travel, (32:00) and 00:32:00that was the greatest thing in my mind to do and actually get an education from the military. And that's exactly what happened, so... He was a great contributor to my life, but my favorite person was my uncle who actually died in Vietnam and he was a captain in the army, but he's such a leadership person and... I mean, he -- he was everything. Straight by the books. I mean, from shoe-shining to education -- getting your education and... I mean, he was by the book and he was my biggest example, and so he actually is on the wall with all the soldiers who got killed in Washington D.C. With all the -- I forget what they call (33:00) 00:33:00that wall there, but it was all the soldiers who got killed in Vietnam. His name is up there. But he was a great football player too for Mobile County Training School. He actually played running back and he was injured with four, five broken ribs and he wouldn't be taken out the game. He continued playing, you know, he was just a hard guy. He wasn't that big, but he was very...everything he set out, he accomplished. That was the bottom line. And he was a great football player. Quarterback. I actually played, and several other people -- Joe Womack. You haven't had a chance to meet him yet, right?

Nathan: No, we know him. We know Major Joe.

Mr. Gill: Yeah, wow. Joe and myself, he's some kin to me on one side, but he was a great leader,(34:00) we was very close coming up. Gary Simpson... I'm trying 00:34:00to think -- oh, Saul Smith. You'll get a chance to talk to him. And several other ones, but we was pretty close.

Nathan: I guess, to wrap up -- *to Ify and Santi* unless either of you two wants to jump in with something? -- I'm curious, you mentioned you haven't seen some folks who might be here in fifty years, and so -- I don't know, if you have like...things you're particularly looking forward to this weekend, or...?

Mr. Gill: Just to see people I hadn't seen in a long time, it means a lot because this is not gonna happen again. A fifty year class reunion, because none of us gonna live forever, so... And some of the people we mentioned already that haven't been fortunate enough (35:00) to be here, I miss them, and I wanted to 00:35:00really get a chance to see as many people as I can. Because I know this is not gonna happen again, and maybe it's the beginning of some things too. To make us get together a little bit more than waiting fifty years, ten years, maybe once a year we can get together and have a little outing for the weekend and... We're all retired now, so it's no excuse. But I'm really looking forward to seeing them because I missed them for a long time. And I always wanted to come back to a reunion, which I never did until now, and I just made up my mind. I'm gonna be here to see them. And Anderson put a lot on people's hearts in saying, "look, (36:00) we're not gonna live forever, and we need to see each other." And he 00:36:00does not let you say "no" too much. So I appreciate him for kind of being a still the glue person, still bringing us together in closeness, and...a lot to celebrate.

Nathan: I'm sorry, I thought of one more thing. I think that some of your teachers are going to be here this weekend as well?

Mr. Gill: Yes.

Nathan: I'm curious if...

Mr. Gill: I heard that coach Arden is going to be there, and I heard that...somebody else, I think is going to be there... I hope Miss McCann will be there. She's been around forever. She taught my mother, my uncles, and everyone. And so when I got to the school, she said, "I already know you. (37:00) You know 00:37:00what's coming." She said, "I don't want to see you in this office." So she kind of kept the family straight too. Coach Arden, he was the person responsible for us actually having our prom here fifty years ago. He was responsible. Because he actually -- it was during, you know, the integration and everything. A lot was going on, and he came down here and demanded. And that was successful. So I'm glad he's here, cause we was the first class to come out of the atmosphere on our campus there and have a prom, and he's come to be here. Fifty years of history. And I seen one other teacher with Ellison, probably -- I forgot...Coach...Coach Clark. (38:00) He's not here now, but he was a 00:38:00congressman here. He actually passed away about a year ago, but I actually got a chance to see him when I was here before, a few years ago. Two or three years ago, and I'd seen him and I was...I felt real good. And...that's about it.

Nathan: Well thank you so much for your time, Mr. Gill. Yeah, I think we're good.

Mr. Gill: You want some more, I got it. *laughs* I'm just kidding.

Nathan: Do you have more?

Mr. Gill: No, I'm -- you know, that's about it, just closeness and...I appreciate what you all are doing. And this means a lot down the line that maybe one day my kids can see all this. My grandkids. And actually understand about the history of the school. Just for the school to be there at all (39:00) and it 00:39:00was the first Black -- I mean, African American school in the state of Alabama, so...that's a lot of history there. So I appreciate what you all have done to help serve this history and to...you know, it's not easy coming somewhere after Thanksgiving, but were you here?

Nathan: No, we came in this morning.

Mr. Gill: Oh, okay. But I just want to say thank you to you guys.

Nathan: Thank you.

Mr. Gill (Addendum 6/24/2020): To sum it up, it's a pleasure to gather and assist to pass on the history for years to come, to let the younger generation to come, to let them know that MCTS was the oldest and first black school in the state of Alabama. It contributed a lot of history. It's called Mobile County Training high School because it was a training school that provided everything a person needed to start in life. We had some great teachers and principles that passed through. All of my family passed through MCTS, my mother, father, aunts, etc. I appreciate the fact that you all are helping to prepare and reserve this history.