John Flen

0:00 Roman: So, I'm gonna start the interview off. My name is Santiago Roman it is November 24th, 2018. We're here in the Mobile Battle House Hotel filming this interview for the Africatown digital archive project. We're here with Mr. John Flen who's a 1965 graduate of Mobile County Training School. And I just want for the video to see- you agree to this interview and this project?

0:26 Flen: Yes, I do.

0:27 Roman: So, were you at the event last night?

0:31 Flen: Yes, I was

0:32 Roman: What was- so we've been kind of asking people since this is the 50th anniversary, at least for the 1968 class it's been a pretty big deal for many of the people we're visiting, what that event was like for you and--

0:44 Flen: It was a real good event last night. I was really pleased with the event. I think overall, I saw 'lotta old friends that I hadn't seen in years and Class of '68 really put a good program together. I just would've liked-- when 00:01:00the music was playing, I would've liked something more upbeat for the Class of '65 when it was going through, 57 and all that so my class would have been able to show the other class up (laughing)

1:23 Roman: (laughing) Yeah. And do you usually come through for the annual--?

1:26 Flen: I been to almost all of 'em that they've had, I missed one or two, but I been mostly every year. I mean, since 2002, 2003, whenever it was started. So, I enjoy 'em and I, it's a good program, good event. Old classmates and people who was ahead of you or behind you so it's a really good program.

1:56 Roman: And do you still live in the area?

2:00 Flen: I live in Atlanta, Georgia. Right outside of Atlanta, in Ellenwood, 00:02:00Georgia. I retired up there in 2004- yes- and so I been in Ellenwood Since then. Cause I'm retired, retired from public school system. And that's where I live.

2:26 Roman: What were you doing in the public-school system? Were you a--?

2:28 Flen: I taught and coached in athletics, all different types of sports, in high school. And then I retired after about 35 years.

2:41 Roman: And you mentioned that you, or you mentioned earlier that you graduated in '73 with a masters in physical education.

2:49 Flen: I graduated in '73 from the University of Cincinnati. Masters in health and physical education.

2:55 Roman: Mhm. And have you been working in public schools since then until now or?

3:00 Flen: I worked in public schools, I also worked in colleges, um, two 00:03:00colleges since I got my masters - Albany State and Liverstone and after that I was in public school for the rest of my career.

3:16 Roman: So, what was it like kind of- going to Mobile County Training School up until when you graduated?

3:26 Flen: I thought it was the only thing, that it was the greatest thing in the world when I was there. I didn't know anything else and I thought we was the best of the best. So, it was great. And when it came to an end it was kind of sad. When it gets almost graduation time you get sorta oh, what am I gonna do now? And I talked to a friend of mine, a guy named Bill Kid and Bill said when 00:04:00you go to college it won't be so bad, but you get kind of a letdown when you graduate high school, that's how it was for me. When you get to college you pick up new friends but it was great for me to be able to kind of - high school, I wish I had applied myself a little more I'd be ready had I applied myself a little more and really listened to the teachers because they saw the potentials in me that I didn't see. And that's - but it was a great experience for me. Great experience, great- I thought that was the greatest school in the world.

4:49 Roman: Yeah, it sounds like it was a pretty incredible place to grow up. And so, if you graduated in '65 does that mean you had maybe a year of overlap 00:05:00where you and Mr. Anderson Flen were going to school together?

5:05 Flen: He played on the football team when he was a freshman, I was a senior. And he played at the same- he was on the field with me at the same time in the '64 football season he was a ninth grader and he played some games that I played in. I was a senior for the '64-'65 season. So, we had that.

5:38 Roman: What's it like kind of being his older brother, did you feel you were kind of were responsible for him in any way when you were growing up or?

5:44 Flen: Now he always been-- had leadership qualities. He always been like that, he always we played lotta football growin' up, sandlot because we played a lot of sandlot growin' up and I played with guys-- was in my grade. He would 00:06:00play with guys that was older than him. They'd let him play quarterback and that's how he learned to play quarterback whereas he would play close to home and have fun and I remember 1960s, 61 and they would protect him, let him throw the ball and that's how he became a quarterback. Whereas I would go and play with guys my age and we would just play out there rough and tough so he was more of a leader in that regard because he learned the guys put him in a leadership position where he could - and they wouldn't let anybody touch him cause he was strong, leave him, let him throw the ball. He learned to throw a ball, he learned to be a leader like that.

6:55 Roman: And what was it like for you outside of Mobile County Training School when you were living in Plateau? What was it like growing up in Africatown?

7:03 Flen: It was um-- at a young- at a younger age, middle school- or elementary school, middle school's what you'd call it now, it- we was very, we was very protected in our community. The community watched out for us in the sense that they knew your parents. People used to tell me, Boy - people'd call me boy- your father catchin' some fish, tell him to save me some fish, cause I want some fish today! Say yes, sir or yes ma'am, so everyone knew your parents and knew you so you was very protected and people tell you where to go and what to- where not to go. And we got a lotta good role models, we played ball a lot with a guy named James Patton Robertson. He had a semi-pro team; he was one a' 00:08:00those guys that played on Sunday. And before that we was small kids, we had a guy named- called him Popeye, his real name was Archie Berill. And Popeye would take us play ball, put us in his car, twelve or thirteen year old kids, we'd go to Prichard Park and play ball. So, we had a little community, and everybody always encouraged you to do your best. And I, you know, you get older and you realize that those people had-- they didn't have-- but they wanted to make your life a lot better. How that became- act that way. Cause a lotta- I didn't wanna play ball one time, my Mama - I said, I'm not goin' out there play no more ball with him, I'm tired a' that man! My mom told me, she said, that man out there did nothin' to you and get yo' butt out there and play. You go an' play. An' I, 00:09:00I appreciate that because she realized that he was doing something to keep us outta trouble. So, it-- it was great. I guess it was kinda isolated, in our own area that was well protected so it was a great time growing up in Plateau and Magazine in Africatown. And we got a little older, Honeybee at the Elks, he wouldn't let you come to the Elks, all us teenagers tryna go in the Elks and tryna to be grown. And Honeybee knew you? You couldn't come in here. You goin' home.

9:45 Roman: try to go into the?

9:47: To the Elks Club. That's a club, Elks, it's down in Plateau- it's still there now. Right across form the graveyard, from the cemetery. And Honeybee wouldn't let you come in there. He knew you, you go home. And so, we had a lotta 00:10:00people, lotta role models. We didn't understand what they was doin' at the time but they was tryin' to watch out fo' us in the best interest of what- you know, we want you to go farther than how we did, what we did. So growin' up out there in that area, it was great. It was great.

10:24 Roman: And did you ever find kind of a sense of community like that after you left Plateau?

10:34 Flen: It was a little harder then you know why today- we don't see kids playin' in the streets you know, cause a lot of us played in the streets so we knew everybody parents. We, we had a closeness. We played ball, on Sundays somewhere. Everybody knew everybody, knew their- knew their parents. I don't see- I don't see that now and I don't- I don't think I had that experience since 00:11:00I left the area because-- I never see kids playin' no mo'. I never see kids playin'. And-- I miss that. Never see kids playin' pick-up games, we play pick-up games no- cause we don't have the money be coached to go where they have the nice ball, we just play out there on the fields at County, we start the ball, it wasn't a manicured field, we just out there playin'. And everybody knew everybody, knew their parents too. I never- I haven't experienced that since I left Plateau. Haven't experienced that type of community relationship since I left.

11:52 Roman: Did you maybe get a little bit of a sense of that last night? I know I could tell just, when we rode in on the bus were kind of chanting and 00:12:00there seemed to be a lot of love for each other, a lot of community.

12:05 Flen: It's so good to see people again that you haven't seen in 50 years. It's um.. You wonder what happened to those people. Like Gloria Giles in Hawai'i. I did not know she was in Hawai'i, I was talkin' to 'er last night, said I was in Hawai'i in 2007 and she's been there 28 years and I did not know that. And you got another guy who's in San Francisco, living in San Francisco, working for the government for the last, I guess, 40 or 50 years. But you know, we had a- a little seed that people come back and realize the diversity in what they have done in life. Just the diversity of that school, it's amazing. But we 00:13:00have people- lawyers, doctors, all kind o' things. Little school out there, Mobile County Training so and sometimes it's shocking that these people you don't you just, you just you don't think about it, you don't think about it 'til you see 'em and talk to 'em. You don' think about it.

13:22 Roman: Yeah, it's really amazing to see kind of how far so many people and like the successes that so many people have had, kind of says something about the community that was there. Just for me I think in that space that night, being on the bus and seeing everybody, and all of those people were just doing so many different and great things. And how do you feel- do you think that people are kind of motivated to kind of do what they can to bring the community back to where it was when they were living there? Cause I know Mr. Flen gave a 00:14:00speech last night about his efforts to try to revitalize the school, stuff like that.

14:08 Flen: Well, I'm hopin' that he motivated you cause he's been fighting since 2000. Major Joe Womack been writin', they're very good writers. Joe puttin' articles out all the time out there on the internet And he's been, I think with a little more help that he could get-- he's become an inspiration because he's really worked hard, um, certain people work really hard to keep it goin' and I think it's gonna change. I think it's gonna change because I saw people there, people who gonna give some money, they gon' give some money somebody 'bout a million dollars, they give some money. It's gonna- it's gonna change.

14:59 Roman: Would you ever consider moving back to Plateau?

15:04 Flen: I- my wife would not wanna come back to Plateau (laughing)

15:08 Roman: Oh is she from Plateau too?

15:10 Flen: No, she's from Atlant- uh- South Georgia. She'd want to go- she'll probably come to Montgomery, I was born in Montgomery. Anderson was the first one born and I have a kid, my older sister passed and I was born in Montgomery. And I went to college in Montgomery- undergrad in Montgomery. But it would be hard to get my wife to Mobile. She might come visit cause she know a lotta people but she would go to Montgomery but not to Mobile. I don't know if you can re- I hope you can revitalize Plateau, it's just-- I know people ain't buyin' land but he said, it's a tough thing to get young people to come out here. He said, no community can survive without young people. Gotta have young people to 00:16:00survive. So, I don't know if Pla- if it'll survive. I'm hoping it can. I hope it can.

16:14 Roman: (sigh) Yeah. Um-- sorry, just taking it in. But.. so you, you mentioned that, so has your wife ever lived here or is this just not maybe, a place that maybe she--

16:32 Flen: No, no she never lived, we been married 40 years now, so she never lived in Plateau area. We haven't lived in Alabama since we been married. We lived in Georgia, North Carolina, and that's it.

16:52 Roman: And did you, growing up here did you notice any like, some of the changes happening or was that something that only happened after you left?

17:01 Flen: I had, um, I noticed the changes mostly when I came back. My high school class, class of '65 was the largest class at Mobile County Training School. So, I didn't notice it then because our class was so large and I - people, when the field closed down, people started leavin' and the field closed down I think my-- Junior or senior year

17:30 Roman: Was that the school, or?

17:31 Flen: No, Brookley field was aero, I think it was the aerospace place where they built big plane, it was a company -- one of the largest companies in Mobile and they moved to California, to Texas, so a lot of people moved out of the area and moved to a different state. Some in my class moved to California, they moved to Texas, and they closed Brookley Field down here I would say, aviation- hope I'm saying that right. That's when they started, when our school 00:18:00started goin' down. And we lost a lot of people- no, and then they- another thing they did, they made Plateau, Magazine a historical site. No buildin' homes out there. Some a' them homes been out there years and years. And also, then they close Happy Hill Projects down which had a lot of kids living in Happy Hill Projects. And they said that it was a flood zone and people they, it never flooded over there before but suddenly it became a flood zone.

18:45 Roman: Interesting. And that was while you were living there or right after?

18:48 Flen: After I lef', when I came back this was probably last 20 years or so I guess that they made Happy Hills a flood zone. They closed the- cause I used to work in the projects, I used to work in the projects with the kids when I was 00:19:00here one time. I was teaching school at Mobile when there was integration also, and I had a lot of kids, Brian was one kid, Brian went the high school with all a' the kids from the projects, Happy Hill Projects and they- they won a high school championship one year, those kids from Happy Hill Projects. We had some kids that went to Tennessee or, big schools so-- but they closed the projects down and said it was a flood zone. Projects still exist but there's no people in there. And that hurt the Plateau/Magazine area. Hurt the school too.

19:47 Roman: Yeah, I remember last time we were here we did some canvassing and walked past the Happy Hill Projects and they were just kind of, empty buildings.

Flenn: (nodding) yes.

20:00 Roman: And when you say they closed it, does that mean the Mobile-

20:02 Flen: The city.

20:03 Roman: The city

20:04 Flen: The city said it's a flood zone but it's never flooded or anything.

20:10 Roman: So that sounds, maybe kinda suspicious a little bit yeah.

20:13 Flen: (nodding) It is suspicious! It's political. They want the area, they want the area I think for industry. You know how Magazine got its name?

20:26 Roman: I feel like I might've been told before but, please tell

20:30 Flen: It was, in World War Two, the magazines- the ammunition for the guns was magazines, that's why they call it magazine.

20:39 Roman: Oh, wow.

20:40 Flen: Magazine Point.

20:42 Roman: So, was there a manufacturer or?

20:43 Flen: They had- the railroad brought 'em here, I don't know if they were, if Alabama was manufacturing them but they had ammunition down there on those trains.

20:54 Roman: That's interesting. I did not know that actually.

21:00: It's a lot of things that happen over there. But you got to get the kids 00:21:00back, the young parents. And you gotta give 'em something out there that they'd want for their home. That's the thing to do. Because most people out there are older people or really poor people. You're not gonna bring a family out there unless something going on out there. And then you worry about pollution out there also. The Chickasaw plant out there, my uncle worked for the Chickasaw, my dad worked at the railroad, other people worked at the paper mill. There came folks working for the paper mill, Scott and International. So, I don't- I don't know what you can do about that as far as EPA comin' in and they clean that place up.

21:58 Roman: Yeah. I know that's something we were looking into, seeing what 00:22:00kind of grants and programs are through the EPA. I know that Major Joe has recounted to us some of the stories where he remembered kind of interacting with the companies and maybe the pollution points where he was younger, he talked about, like, playing in areas that now he knows that were really polluted is there any kind of memories like that you might have? Just kind of, what it was like living around-

22:31 Flen: Well, used to have in the fall, used to have that smell over at the high school from the paper mill. Very strong smell. You'd get that- used to get that dust. We got that when we were playin' football, we didn't think anything of it. From the paper mill and from those different places. I grew up in, I grew up also by the Chickasaw plant, all that black. We grew up and people went 00:23:00fishing out that way. I don't know if that- I don't know how that affected our health but it possibly did. And with the paper mill, had the paper mill down in Magazine. And Plateau had a paper mill. They had good jobs but then all the pollution was over here where the... poor people lived. Everything came on the train, had the train comin' in, boxcars because as a kid, we used to get- I used to be with the older guys and we'd get soy beans off the train and sell 'em for hogfeed. 'Kay, so I mean at the train stop, we'd jump on trains, sweep soy beans into paper sacks, take 'em to sell 'em. And people would buy 'em cause they feed the hogs. So, that's something we did.

24:02 Roman: (laughing) that sounds a little exciting, jumping on trains.

24:06 Flen: I wasn't even a teenager. I was following behind the older guys. You know what my brother said last night about Dan Crenshaw was his hero? I was following his brother, he had a brother older than him, I used to roll papers with, and I'd be out with him, just following behind. There were trains, get soybeans off, we made some money.

24:31: You mentioned fishing earlier and at the very beginning you said your dad fished- was that something you also did when you were younger with your family?

24:42: I would go out there, I never learned when he taught me how to fish, but now he was a great fisherman. He'd go fishin' when he got out of work and he'd catch oodles of fish. Sheepheads, green trouts, crawdads, eels, he'd catch all-

25:03 Roman: He'd catch eels?

25:04 Flen: Mhm.

25:05 Roman: Where? In Hog Bayou?

25:06: All over there when he was fishing- he had a boat. I had cleaned fish, I cleaned all of 'em. Cleaned fish, rabbits, squirrels. I cleaned em cause he'd wanna fish and hunt. And then we always, always had fresh fish. So he was a great fisherman until he stopped. He just stopped fishin' when he got in his seventies. He said, I'm not gon' fish no more.

25:37 Roman: And so you cleaned the things- the animals he hunted pretty much every week?

25:42: Well when hunting season was goin', sometimes he'd go up into Montgomery and hunt, we had land up there and he'd get rabbits and squirrels, possums, coons, he'd go up there and - with his cousins, his brother, and they'd hunt on 00:26:00his land 'cause I was bit over 8, and they killed wild turkeys, deer, all those things. And also when I was growin' up, my grandaddy, my mama's father, he had - he farmed 125 acres and he grew everything and he had a hog killing once a year. We'd go up there, help clean the hogs and the goats. And I've seen them and I've helped clean hogs, and I've seen the goats bein' killed, and my aunt said they'd kill a cow, but I never seen a cow being killed. My grandaddy put the meat in the smokehouse and put salt on it. And they'd cure meat and then they would take the liver outta the hog and go cook the liver while we was out there cleanin' 00:27:00the hog. We would eat that with some rice and bread, the liver. And I remember all that, I was a little kid cause my grandaddy died when I was ten years ol'. So I remember that cause my mama'd take us and my daddy'd go up there, and everybody's help with the hogs and the meat. Ham, shoulder, and he'd kill separate hogs and that's how people survived. We'd go get the manure and throw it in the back a' the wagon and that's what we'd use to grill on. My mama'd go out there sometimes, go out and put chicken in the pen with some clorox and some water, and then she'd go kill the chicken, bring the chicken in and go fry it. That was surviving skills people taught you and you remember except they don't do it anymore. That's what they did at that time.

28:00 Roman: What other kind of survival skills did your parents or the 00:28:00community teach you, do you think?

28:07 Flen: (laughing) I can tell you, they knew how to survive. They carried fruit, they carried pails and feed, I remember seeing my uncle make butter, with the churn to make butter. Took the 25 pound sacks of flour and made pillow cases out of 'em, some of 'em made dresses out of 'em. 25- 25 pound sack of flour make a pillow case after you get the flour out. I remember people'd barter cup of flour, some salt, some pepper, couple eggs. And we had chickens right here where I grew up. We had chickens and we'd get eggs from the chickens. So we had, mama'd go out and kill the chickens she got tired of 'em. We had a whole kinda- 00:29:00how to survive.

29:07 Roman: Yeah, so now do you usually just go to the grocery store to get all that kind of stuff, like eggs, food- do you miss kind of living, and having all the animals around you and kind of eating, just like seeing the process or do you prefer going to the grocery store to do everything?

29:23 Flen: Well I got smaller in that regard so I just go to a grocery store. I - when I go in the country, like I was there the other day with my cousins, they asked me- they gave me a piece of deer meat, I never did eat the deer meat cause I gave it away but, I would love to get rabbit here once in a while. A wild rabbit, something like that. I would love to- just to cook it. Just to go back and see how it tastes because - but, I'm too domesticated now to (Roman 00:30:00laughing) go back to the old way. (laughing)

30:05 Roman: Yeah, I know Major Joe's brother Jessie still goes hunting regularly around here. So did you ever- when you were growing up in Africatown did you ever kind of leave the community or did you mostly just stay inside, I know, you mentioned earlier you just kind of stayed or you tried not to leave 'cause you didn't wanna get into trouble or-

30:30 Flen: Yeah well growing up, the only time I came back from teaching school I moved out of Africatown but I still spend most of my time over there when I wasn't working. I still spent my time over there, playin' ball with the guys, still playin' ball with the same guys until I left when I was 30 years old, I left when I was 30 and that's when I haven't been back to stay. I've just been back to visit and so it's been 40 years now.

31:03 Roman: Yeah. But when you were kind of growing up, like in high school and middle school did you really just stay in Plateau or did you-

31:10 Flen: Stayed in Plateau and Magazine. We didn't have cars so you had to walk and you couldn't walk too far. We walked to Prichard Park to play ball when we was kids cause we didn't have a car and we played ball out there in Plateau and Magazine, but we didn't go that far. We would go to Saraland, a lot of kids came from Saraland that we went to school with and we had to get somebody's car to go to play ball but that was later one when we was older. But most of the time, most of the kids I knew, we didn't have a car. Folks didn't have a car. And so, we couldn't, we didn't have a driver's license, we just went to- stayed in the area basically unless somebody took us outta the area. But a lot a' times, when we used to pay our bills or went downtown for somethin', I would bum a ride or catch the bus or walk. I'd walk down there.

32:02 Roman: Walk all the way to Downtown Mobile?

32:05 Flen: Yeah. Yeah, 'bout three miles. Three miles, so I always walked a lot so that wasn't a big deal so if she tell me go downtown to do something, I would call a lot a' rides up that way, bum me a ride. Else, I'd probably catch the bus.

32:26 Roman: You mean like hitch your thumb out for a ride or something? (Flen nods) ohhh. Well I think-- I don't wanna take up too much more of your time but if there's anything else you wanna say or talk about, maybe some people you're looking forward to see, like, a few specific people maybe you were looking forward to see at the event last night that you hadn't seen in a while?

32:51 Flen: Well no, you always wanna see more of your classmates and wonder what they're doin', because we're losin' a lot of mass since 2003 when we 00:33:00started class reunion, at least with my class of '65, we lost a lot of people. 4 of 'em this year. So you always like to see the guys and hope they're doin' well and you try to do well so, and I, there's some people I really wanna see some a' those guys and some of the older people that helped me along when I was growing up and tried to encourage me. I owe that to them, to come back and say, you know, how you doin'? Glad you're doin' well, I'm glad to see ya. And that's important to them because when I, a lotta the kids that I taught in school, I'd be glad to see doing well. And proud of 'em. Make me feel good to come back and say, Hey coach how you doin' coach? So that's basically what I'm gonna do.

33:58 Roman: So, some of your role models were there last night?

34:02 Flen: Dan Crenshaw was there, Tucker Cook was there, Mr. P, my favorite teacher was there, I got a chance to speak to him. I think Coach Harding will be there tonight, Ms. McCans gonna be there tonight, I dunno who else gonna be here. And some a' the other people were James Patton Robertson, he's gone. Bill Kid, I'm gon' try to go by his house today, Cleon Jones, who used to play for the Mets but he wasn't there- walk up on him somewhere. Got a lot of 'em goin' on, most a' the guys, they gone. So I wanted a chance to see 'em, many a' them died, I'm hoping to see Dan, Big Dad, we called him Big Dad. And Pete, I hope I 00:35:00get a chance to see Pete today so I'm gonna ride- when I leave here I'm gonna ride to, after I practice for this thing tonight, gonna try to see some of my old buddies, say hi to those guys.

35:17 Roman: Do you have maybe any stories about some of your role models that you kind of, or like fond memories or something? Things that happened that you can remember with any of the people you just mentioned?

35:32 Flen: Well, some stories I think- Coach Harding was my baseball coach and he really encouraged me and Mr. P was, I tell him all the time, he was the best teacher I ever had. Because he tried to work, never got loud, but he always tried to encourage you and work with you as a instructor. I kinda, thought about him a lot when I was teaching as a role model and Coach Harding as a coach, he 00:36:00always was tellin' us about the mustard seed, he said yo' heart is like a mustard seed - is it a mustard seed or?- it's a real small seed that grow a real big tree. And he said, a mustard seed was real small, so he encouraged us to do better. You know and I, I look at those people now and I really appreciate what they tried to do. I dunno I was listening, I wish I had listened more. I appreciate what they did. So, that's about it.

36:46 Roman: And did you- I guess my last thing, so it sounds like you took some of the lessons that you learned and you tried to give that back to the people, the children that you, the kids that you taught as a coach. (Flen nodding)

36:59 Flen: Yes, I learned some from what my college coach, Homer and Vancleave, 00:37:00and they were something else, Vancleave he was the head coach and Homer was the assistant coach. I played a lot back in college would always encourage you, in fact he and Chris, the football coach is Chris, in fact, but Homer would get in your face, he'd be red in the face but he would motivate us to do better. We wasn't big but we was tough. And Coach Harding was coached by Coach Vancleave they was tough but they - tough times to the last, and tough people. Tough times make some tough people. We was tough. And they worked us. And I appreciated that. Really 'ppreciate it.

38:01 Roman: That sounds- sounds really fun, thank you so much for taking time-

38:09 Flen: Thank you! Thank both a' y'all!

38:10 Roman: Yeah, of course.