Pastor Williams Full Interview

00:00 Janet Fiskio: This is Janet Fiskio and we are here at Yorktown Church in Africatown Alabama with Pastor Williams. It is January 4th 2018 and we're doing an interview as part of the Africatown digital archive project. So thank you, Pastor Williams, for your time.

Pastor Williams: You're welcome, thank you for coming.

Fiskio: Could you tell me where you were born?

Pastor: I was born in a small town called Brownsboro, Alabama. That's outside of Huntsville

Fiskio: How far is that from here?

Pastor: About 400 miles.

Fiskio: Okay, so how did you first learn about Africatown?

Pastor: When I became pastor here -- I knew a little bit about it before I became pastor in 2006 -- I learned a little bit about Africatown but since I've been here I've learned a great deal about it.

What are some of the things that you think people should know about Africatown?

Pastor: Well, that it is one of the most historic places in America as far as Black people are concerned and that if they come here they will see a lot of things that they haven't seen in other parts of the world. And that we're 00:01:00working to do better than what we have at this point.

01:05 Fiskio: What kinds of -- So if people came here they would see things, what would they see?

Pastor: Well, they would talk to the people that live here. They'd tell 'em the stories that they were brought up with. They could see the houses to see the area. You can come down to where to Clotilda was found -- the ship Clotilda where the last freemen, some call slaves, were brought in.

Fiskio: What are some of the stories that you've heard, you said there were a lot of stories here?

Pastor: I've heard about Cudjoe Lewis, I've heard about the slaves walking from the ship up to what is called the bowl area, about the high school being now a middle school. There's so many stories that you hear, you hear about all the relatives and all the people that's in this area, and where they came from, and who the people are, and what part of Africa -- I can't think of the exact name of it but where they came from -- I can show you on a map. But it's just a lot of great stories that you'll hear and understand that just about everybody in 00:02:00America has some dealing with this area. Every black person in America has some dealing of something that happened in this area that affects them.

02:13 Fiskio: And so, you mp entioned -- we were talking earlier -- that this story doesn't get told in history books and that kind of thing. Why do you think that is?

Pastor: Well, the truth of the matter is it's about Black people and the problem in Alabama is -- and not just Alabama, a problem all over the world -- is Black history didn't matter until just a few years ago, and it still don't matter to a lot of people. It's not in our history books. That wasn't taught in my elementary, or middle school, or high school. It's not in the world history books but it's a historic place. This --nowhere else can they say, in America, that the last ship was brought into America, illegally, with freemen that were captured as slaves and enslaved here, on that boat, until they got to America. 00:03:00And then had to be -- live on their own in a area that they were not familiar with. No other place in America can say that.

03:11 Fiskio: So, it sounds like that's one of the things that makes Africatown unique and so since you came here from another place in Alabama but are there things that are really unique about Africatown?

Pastor: Oh yes, its a lot of things, this is a very -- how would you say -- family oriented area. Everybody is -- I don't want to say everybody is related -- but it appears that everybody is related. Everybody -- If you're from Plateau, Africatown everybody is close knit. Now you gonna have squabbles. You always have family squabbles but everybody is close knit in Africatown, Plateau area, Magazine Point, Louis Quarters --which all make up Africatown. Everybody is very close knit.

Fiskio: And you mentioned that you --people wanted to see things done better than they had been done-- you said that the history is important but its also 00:04:00about the future. So what are the things you would like--you think should happen, that you would like to see.

04:10 Pastor: Well the future is a great deal important. If you look around Africatown now, you'll see all the industry that's being grown in. My opinion is that, not just the city, the whole state is trying to wipe Africatown off the map. The more industry you put here, the smaller Africatown becomes. When Africatown was a large bustling place, now it has become a small closed in space and is surrounded by industry. You got a train track that brings in tar sand, you got all the chemicals coming across the river through Africatown, you got the other main road that comes through--everything comes though Africatown. No other place Alabama, or I think Mobile, has this this type of traffic. I know it's not in Mobile because it all comes through here and a lot of the times the 00:05:00problems is right here. Who would have put--you wouldn't find an oil tank you wouldn't find any of the chemicals, acid, in West Mobile? You won't find it. They'll close a dump in west Mobile but they'll place that dump right here. They do the dredging of the river and they put all the dredge materials in Africatown. Why would you do that? It makes no sense to me.

Fiskio: Especially in an area thats this historic. Right? It's a unique area.

Pastor: Exactly, its a very unique area but until the story is told-- and thank the college for coming-- but until the story is told, nobody else will know. And like I said, it's not in the history books. My children wouldn't have known anything about Africatown because it wasn't taught. They went to school here. You can go to West Mobile and some of the children don't know anything about Africatown, they don't know anything about Plateau, they don't know anything about the ship, Clotilda, or the mayors who ran the ship who came to 00:06:00Mobile and they still wouldn't know where the name Yorkshire, or the city Yorkshire, or the plantation Yorkshire was even in this area. And a lot of people-- a lot of the older people here don't even know about Yorkshire.

06:18 Fiskio: So, this was this church, there was a plantation here?

Pastor: It wasn't here, it was in this area. This church was not named after the plantation, from what I understand. It was named-- there was a group of people in Yorkshire, England and what happened was, when they got rid of the name of the church and instilled the name Yorktown of it Yorkshire it was a community so they named it Yorktown and that's how Yorktown became to be, from what I was told.

Fiskio: How long has this church been here?

Pastor: This church is a hundred and-- I thinks its a hundred and thirty years this year--I have to check to make sure. I think it's a hundred and thirty years. I think its on this location for--I want to say sixty-five or seventy 00:07:00years, I'm not exactly sure. But I can get that information from elsewhere.

07:07 Fiskio: I know, that's a long time. So, you were gonna--this is partly for our project-- what are the kinds of stories that you think we should ask about? What kinds of things should we try to learn about that other people should hear?

Pastor: Well I think one of the main things that need to learn about is the entire story. Not just part of the story of the Clotilda

Fiskio: Okay

Pastor: Why it was done. You take a bet to bring free men from Africa back to America and you bet a couple thousand dollars to see "oh I can do it" and get away with it-- and you know it's against the law. And then the whole story. They know how many people--or what happened on that slave ship, how people were treated. Not only did they bring free men here but a lot of free people were thrown overboard because thats what happens. When you get sick you're thrown 00:08:00overboard, that's damage to them that's just a waste of a space. You need to know the whole story of the Clotilda, hey need to know the whole story this community--how this community came into existence, they need to know where we are now, what we're doing, what we're teaching. Then they need to know about the school, Mobile County Training School. And you know, the things that we are facing the obstacles that's been thrown in front of this school and the continuation of that school but most importantly they need to learn about the people that's here. These people--and I say these 'cause I'm not really from here-- but these people are proud people, they're not asking for a handout, they're not asking you to give me everything they wanna work for-- but they don't want you to put oil tanks in their front yard. Who wants to live with an oil tank in their front--who wants tar sands spilling onto their property. Nobody wants that. Tell the story of the people that are still here. There are 00:09:00some people that can tell you who Cudjo Lewis was and tell you who Peter Leigh. They can tell you what that Chimney on the corner of the street means, why it's still there, why it hasn't been torn down. Tell you the history of the welcome center across the street. How the welcome center is supposed to be this big booming welcome center but all you get is a trailer that is dilapidated and they want you to utilize it and make the best that you can. This is not a second-class generation or people. We are a first-class people and deserve to be treated as such.

09:38 Fiskio: Thats right, thats right, thats right. So how did you come to Africatown how did you know, accepting this church as your...

Pastor: It was, I have to say, the grace of God 'cause I had no idea that Yorktown even existed. I was at church one Sunday--at the church I was from. And it was the first Sunday, my pastor and I had just given the last supper and this lady 00:10:00came in---a very attractive lady came in. She said: "pastor I wanna talk to you and Chris." And I'm thinking "who was this lady?"--I didn't even know who she was and she said: "I need to talk to y'all cause Chris is gonna be the next pastor." No Chris is not gonna be the next pastor anyway. So "Pastor okay we'll talk." so we went back to the office and I'm tryna figure out--pastor lookin' at me, my wife standing beside me, she's like: "who is this lady?" So, we--back to the pastor-- so Tracy is right behind me--that's my wife. And pastor said, "hold on a minute let us talk and see what's going on." So, come found out she sayin' I was gonna be the next pastor here in Yorktown but I didn't even know Yorktown existed. And I said: "no I'm not" so I didn't even put in paperwork so I went back to church and they said "did you put the rsum in?" I said no. He said "are ya?" I said no. Well the next month later she comes again. She said, "pastor I told y'all that Chris is gonna be the next pastor out there and he needed to go put a rsum in." I said, "no I'm not." 'cause 00:11:00I'd been prayin' but I didn't ask for no church. And so, I didn't do it and I guess it was a week or two later the pastor called me and said, "Chris you need to put your application in." I said, "for what?" and we talked and he said--so I don't remember I think the lady's name-- I think it was Miss Scott, I'm not sure. I had a number to call here and they said, "just put it in the mailbox" and I put it in the mailbox and it was the--I think it was like a Friday-- it was the day before they were supposed to look at all the resums. So I made the deadline before and they called me and I'm here thats the history of it

11:42 Fiskio: How did they find out about you?

Pastor: I don't know. I don't even know if they found out about me, the lady didn't even go to church here. She was not even a member here. The one who came to morning service.

Reggie: So it was Miss Scott

Pastor: No, it wasn't Miss Scott that came to the church, it was Miss Scott that I talked to on the phone--I think it was Miss Scott who I talked to on the phone 00:12:00who told me to put it in the mailbox. I had to find out where...

Fiskio: Before you became a pastor, what jobs did you do?

Pastor: I was an Alabama State Trooper for twenty-five years.

Fiskio: How did you go from being a state trooper to a minister?

Pastor: Well when I--we wont go the whole history-- When I was fifteen I knew I was called to preach but I had to figure that thing out. I ran for about fifteen years. I did everything I thought I was big enough to do. Got in all the trouble I thought I could do and still be lawful. But when I went to college it got real heavy on me to do what I was supposed to do. Then I left college and went to the Trooper Academy tried to run by being a state trooper and that didn't work. I found myself ministering to all the people at work. Started different programs that helped teach and some of them are still runnin'. But that's where it started. I ended up going back to school and getting my degrees 00:13:00and doing everything I was supposed to do. Now it's my calling when I was thirty so fifteen years later I was called a pastor, when I was 43 I've been retired.

Fiskio: So, then you moved here and you said you raised your children here?

Pastor: Yeah, I raised a daughter, Abreeotta, a son, Chris or Christopher, and they're doing good. Avery is-- she's a doctorate in molecular genetics, she's a professor in Tennessee and my son is a occupational therapist in Birmingham.

Fiskio: And so, what are-- when you think back you said you came here in 2006

Pastor: 2006

Fiskio: What are some of the most important things you feel like have happened while you've been here as a pastor--here at your church maybe.

Pastor: Well a lot of things have happened, but I think one of the most important things that have happened is the outreach that we have here at Yorktown as far as to the citizens of this community. We have every second Saturday we do an outreach as far as giving food out to help those that need-- 00:14:00now this is not for just this community it goes out to people thats all over this community. But we do that outreach and we reach out to those that are in need. We give them food. Were workin' on another ministry that will give clothing. So we're doing some things here at Yorktown to reach out to even outside of Africatown area. So that's one of the things we've been--we've taken in members. We've lost a lot of members. There's a lawsuit that started out of this church to assist some of the members that have lost loved ones. We have one family, one entire family that's been decimated by cancer. The father died from cancer, the mother has cancer, I think three daughters have died from cancer, and one of the brothers knows something about it so there has to be a reason for 00:15:00cancer coming into one family like that because it don't happen--across America you don't see that where everybody in the house diagnosed with cancer then-- and it's not just that house there's several houses that has cancer in it out of this area. And once you talk to them about what happened and how they was brought up and what was going on at the time you realize that some of the things that happened back then is affecting our people even today and will continue to affect our people for years to come because children now are having problems breathing and they're being diagnosed early with different stages of cancer and asthma and all kinds of things. So it don't just happen, just happenstance, it happens 'cause people do things that shouldn't be done then after they found out that they've done something they just up and leave and don't try and fix it. Thats where the problem is and that's why the lawsuit was started.

Fiskio: When you talk about the obstacles and the challenges, how do you keep 00:16:00going? How do you keep doing this work?

Pastor: You gotta keep prayin'. That's the only way. The benefits are far more better than the obstacles. Because once you see a child that smiles because it's so innocent and you can talk to -- there's a little boy that goes to church here, he's smart as a whip.Every Sunday that I see him he's got something encouraging to say when I talk to him. And so those moments make all the rough moments a lot better. Its not a party. Pastoring is not an easy task by no stretch of the word. You face death on a regular basis and you have to face it with your members. You go to a hospital--I spend the majority of my time at time at the hospital because you walk back and forth--you have people that are sick. 00:17:00Matter of fact I had to go to the hospital today. We have two members there that are sick. You have to figure out how to help those that are bereaved or are going through bereavement. No matter what you say--what can you say to ease their pain? You can just be there and talk to them. It's a stressful job but God is able to make everything easy once you depend on him.

Fiskio: When you talk about the number of deaths in the community and... What are the ways that the community helps and supports each other do you think?

Pastor: Oh, because it's so close knit if something happened to Ms. Jones then everybody's gonna rally to Ms. Jones they're gonna call Ms. Jones and talk to her. That talkin' believe it or not, talkin' helps you to--not get rid of but it eases the pain of that death. When my wife lost her mother and her father we had 00:18:00people to call people to come by and that helps you to, not get over it, but helps you to go through it. Because you don't ever get over it. When a child dies you never get over it. When a momma dies you don't get over it because you just struggle with. When a spouse passes it something you just wont get over. You have to endure. You depend on the Lord a whole lot more because you realize that he's the one thats gonna bring you through it. That's one of the things I try to tell the people. And I don't go to them that night and say "well the Lord knows better and he knows best" because we don't wanna here that at that point. Later you might want to--be able to receive that but at that time, that night, your husband, your wife, or your mother's dying or has passed you don't wanna hear "the Lord knows" you don't wanna hear anything about the Lord because the Lord allowed your loved one to leave. So right then you're angry with the Lord. Most people are. But after a couple days then you can talk about what the Lord's 00:19:00gonna do and how he's gonna bring you through it. But you go there and talk about "Lord knows best" not only are you hurting that person's feelings but you might get a few words that you don't wanna-

Fiskio: That's right *laughs* I'm just thinking, when you're talking about, you know, the kind of grief and the the pain that people go through and the communities support. What are the things you hope for for the future and what do you think seems like theres a lot of strengths in this community when you said people support each other and they're close? What are the things that you hope to see in the future here?

Pastor: Well, the stories that I've heard about the barber shops, the shoppin' centers--this was a self-contained community not long ago. I would hope and pray 00:20:00that they could get back to being a self-contained--not that we wanna be separated from everybody else, but everybody wants to be able to walk down to the corner and get your haircut or walk to the corner and get a Coke or whatever. That's what I hope but I also pray that there is a medical facility in this community that will begin to work with the people who are struggling and suffering because of someone else's acts and that should happen--it should have been happening last year, years ago that they could have a medical facility here that will help them 'cause cancer is--it don't just affect that one person. It affects everybody in that family and the neighbors. Because the neighbors, they've grown up with you. They love you. They like what you do. They may not get along everyday but they still dont want you to be suffering. They dont want you to hurt. So, I think we'll back to a self-contained area. Not restricted 00:21:00from the community but where we can go, they can go, we can go to get a Coke, go to get our groceries or get a hair cut. You know, just go around and buy a hamburger. That's important because there's places miles away. Closest grocery store is forever. I mean there's nothing here and all that wants to be brought here is tank farms, tar sands. This community deserves much better than that. You wouldn't find this in West Mobile--and I keep saying West Mobile--you wouldn't find this in West Mobile. And they ask, "well why is the population dwindling in Africatown?" Well you're killing us. You're putting tank farms, you're putting oil, and this smell that you can smell all the time. You go outside and you smell it. At one point, you would go outside and your clothes 00:22:00are covered with ash from different plants. So, yeah, get us a facility here. And I understand it's not your responsibility, to make this community a big booming place but it is your responsibility to use the tax dollars that we're paying, that this community is paying, to better this community. You can put, you can reach out and try to get all these stores and all these things in the restaurant for West Mobile and for different areas--why can't you do it here? Why can't you spend some tax money here? It took us forever to get the roads paved out here. We had community meeting after community meeting and I'm not talking bad about our community leader who is Brother Manzie(Spell Check) He's done great work. He's helped us a lot. But there's still a lot of work that needs to be done. I mean we could say--He paved the roads so it went through 00:23:00thats good. But thats not good. I mean it's good that the roads are paved but it's even better when we start doing all the roads. When we put sidewalks all through the community. When we fix the community center the way it is in West Mobile. We can clean it up and you should--this community should have to form a group to go downtown and talk to the mayor to get the community center pressure-washed. It shouldn't happen. We shouldn't have to form a committee to go and ask to beautify this building and clean it up and put--make the air conditioning work. That shouldn't happen. That should be on a schedule. Why in the world would the community have to stay on the city to cut the grass? The grass was over my knees this summer. It was myself and six other people who went down to the mayors office and talked to the mayor. And I had to give him the benefit. The next day they were out cutting the grass. But we shouldn't have 00:24:00had to go ask them to cut the grass, they should've been cutting the grass. It should have been in a rotation list with the rest of the community. And I went to other community centers and the grass was not that high. So we just wanted to be treated fairly.

Fiskio: And I hear all these things that are happening which are not right and at the same time

Pastor: It was people all over who did the run across the bridge and back. Then they named it Africatown boulevard--Am I correct? --

Fiskio: When was this?

Pastor: The run was--it was in-- I don't remember but they had T-shirts and people were all over. It might've been October. But they ran from here, over the bridge, and back and it was a walk/run to get the name out about Africatown. It was an Africatown run. Look, the people here--I don't like to say these--the 00:25:00people here work together to do whats necessary--and you gonna have some thats gonna pull against wisdom and thats in any community. But the majority of the community wanna better their area. They want the best for their community because they've growed up here--they grew up here. They're working here, they're doing things here. And when you dont do--If you got two children and you give one of them new clothes and the other one gets the hand me downs every time, theres gonna be some resentment in the one that gets the hand-me-downs every time. But when you're poor you know that's what you have to do. These people are not so oor that they deserve second hands from the city of mobile. The city deserves, these people deserve, we deserve first class stuff just like everybody all over Mobile.

Fiskio: It's what you said before about being second-class citizens if you're 00:26:00always getting hand downs...

Pastor: If you ever looked at-- and I dont expect and no disrespect--I don't expect you or any people to understand. But if you are a Black person in America you have felt the second-class citizenship thrown towards you. "You can't do this. You can't do that." But I raised my children and I'll tell anybody: "I'm not second to no one." Now that gets me into a lot of arguments a lot of trouble. When I was working I got in trouble 'cause I'm not second to nobody. If i-If we're gonna have a test and I gotta take a test to be promoted and I come out in the top of the group than I expect to be promoted. I don't expect to be passed by because his skin tone is different than mine. Oh, that happens. It still happens in Alabama. However, a law suit was done and broke that up. We as 00:27:00America are gonna have to some day face the fact that there's racism in America. There's a problem in America and it don't stop there. It trickles down all the way to the cities to the smaller communities. There are people who won't come to Africatown. They'll come through on the byway but they won't come into Africatown. Because, we're gonna put up a wall. "You might get trapped in there. You might get messed up." There's no cannibals out here. * Fiskio laughs* I mean we're people. We're human beings and we deserve to be treated like human beings. I can't speak for everybody. But I think if you talked to anyone in this community they'll tell you they're not second class to anyone. We may not have everything rich people have or other people have. But one thing that we 00:28:00have--and people will say it's a detriment--we have pride in ourselves, pride in our community, and we expect to be treated like anyone else. But so often it won't happen anymore.

Fiskio: My experience--and my students can chime in here--is that Africatown has been incredibly generous to us when we show up out of no where and I feel like that's something thats really special about this community. It feels like a very welcoming place actually.

Pastor: If you come into Africatown you're gonna get loved just like you were at home. People are gonna throw their arms around you. Now, if you mess up they're gonna tell you: "you messed up." They ain't gonna jump on you, ain't gonna raise sand04:25 they'll let you know that we don't do it that way we're not gonna raise sand but we're gonna let you know and we're gonna love you just the same. I'll never forget there was a lady here--she passed--when I first came here she 00:29:00told me off because I called her by a name that they told me her name was and she let me know that wasn't her name. It took a while but me and her became friends. She would come down the hall--not every Sunday--but she'd come down the hall and we'd talk and we'd hug and she go about her business. But they love you differently then you expect to be loved, you wouldn't expect to come here and be welcomed and loved and throwed your arms around and you'll meet people in plateau that will just hug you because you say, "hey I'm" "oh hey how you doin'." And that's just the way it is.

Fiskio: Why do you think that is? Why do you think Africatown is like that?

Pastor: Because it's a family oriented area. Everything here is family oriented. You messed with Joe's family, you just messed with Joe. You mess with reggie's family you just messed with Joe. I mean that's just the way it is, it's a 00:30:00family--and they don't have to be kin, it's just that Joe knows Reggie, Joe watched Reggie grow up, and if you mess with Reggie then you messin' with Joe. And I'm not from here but if you mess with me, you mess with Joe and you mess with Reggie that's just the way--when you come in to Africatown and you automatically adopt it as one of them. And if you start working here then you're in a high echelon, you're somebody. Oberlin came and y'all start working, you start doin' things. I remember when you first came and y'all were working y'all even came here.

Fiskio: That's right.

Pastor: And so yeah, you're gonna do well. Anybody that comes here will be well. But don't come here with the wrong attitude or the wrong--or tryna stir up problems then you'll be--you'll be welcomed but you'll be told you're messin' up.

Fiskio: So what--and this is, now I'm just asking this 'cause it's good for us to know--what would be the wrong attitude. What would you advise people not to do?

Pastor: The main thing I would advise you not to do is not to come in and tell them what they're gonna do.

Fiskio: Okay

Pastor: That's the wrong thing to do. If you come in and you tell Joe "This is how it's gonna be." Wait a minute that's not how it's gonna be. Because we've been struggling here for what, a hundred so years. My momma struggled here, my momma's momma struggled here. We didn't leave. We went to college but we came back. And you cant come in and tell us what we're gonna do. So, if you wanna mess up right away, come in and tell any citizen here what they're gonna do and how they're gonna do it. But if you come in and ask them "What do you think about this?" It works a lot better.

Fiskio: Seems pretty simple to come in and ask but I guess it doesn't--people don't always do it that way.

Pastor: It don't always happen. Most people will come in and, you know, get a feel for it. Some people don't. When you come in on the offensive, when you come 00:32:00in and put a industry in and then don't do what you promised. That's bad and that's a bad thing for any community but it would be really bad in this community 'cause it's so family oriented.

Fiskio: I'm wonderin' if other people have questions that you wanna throw in. Reggie? *coughs*

Mr. Reggie Hill: Do you believe that it's a possibility, within this generation, for us to see the Africatown that you knew then.

Pastor: I think that we could do and be the Africatown that I've heard about and 00:33:00I've seen next month. I believe that. And the reason I believe that because God can do all things. But, it's gonna take more than my beliefs. We're gonna--we, and I say we, the citizens of Africatown, the community, is gonna have to work. It's gonna take work. It's gonna take effort. But we're gonna have to invite these big stores. The Dollar Tree, the Dollar General, the McDonalds, the Hardees. And then we gotta be open minded to receive them. But can we be what we should be and what we could have been and have been? Sure, we can, and it won't take long. If we do it the way it's supposed to be done If we get to support the city of Mobile. We pay taxes but it's tough to get tax money out here. Any time you have to struggle--I mean fight--to get the building pressure washed--or do 00:34:00it yourself and then you get in trouble when you trespass. So yeah, it can be done but we've got--we, I say we-- the community has to work hand-in-hand with the city, with businesses, and once we start working together then we can do--we have the greatest opportunity in the world because of--now I fuss about that bridge, I fuss about it because it brings chemicals and danger and -- but it also brings a lot of people through here. We've got a sign that says welcome to Africatown then a sign that says welcome on the other end. We'll have anything in the middle to stop them. McDonalds, Chick-fil-a, one restaurant right there would stop a thousand people. I don't know how many a day probably five hundred, but at least a thousand people a week would stop and hear about. Because in 00:35:00McDonalds you would have the murals that show Africatown. You would have the pictures--one McDonalds could change the whole way Africatown is looked upon. And then you wanna know "well where you gonna put it?" There's a whole lotta property right there where the paper-mill was and where the parking lot is. Theres a bank buildig thats right there to put a Regents bank or a PNS--or what is it PNB, yeah them-- to put any bank, any financial building there. There's land, there's places. Right down here is a big field to put a Hardees11:21, a McDonalds, a Burger King, Chick-Fil-A. They can come. Once you stop you're gonna see something about Africatown. People are gonna wanna come see it. I was in Virginia where--and we took a tour of the FBI academy, we took a tour of the little area of Virginia and you go to house to house--George 00:36:00Washington, where his house was. They still show how he cooked his meals, where he cooked his meals. It's there. You go to the battlefield up there in Virginia or where the United States Fire Academy is--I went there to--and they show--they give you a tour. They have ghost tours or what happened during the war, they show you the building where all the musket balls were hitting the wall and how this one....... Video cuts off.

Pastor: ...Buffalo Soldiers buried in this cemetery right across the street. The Buffalo Soldiers that still walk around and work here. They're not the old Buffalo Soldiers of that generation but they're still Buffalo Soldiers. And I think it was like, what, for years ago? They came in and did the--they searched it the ground--I can't remember what it's called. Where they show where the graves were and some of the graves were still there. They found some of the 00:37:00graves of the Buffalo Soldiers. So, it's a lot of things that can happen here. We can go back--you can't go back in history-- but we can be what we were at one time if we put effort to it and then we get the support from the city of Mobile and the other businesses.

Mr. Reggie Hill: You mentioned in the interview earlier about the depopulation of the area. I guess I wanna ask, what impact do you think the school has had in fostering the depopulation and where do you see us needing to go or what needs to be done to ensure that the school is still viable and still existing, still growing so we can keep those family oriented principals in there.

Pastor: I think one of the biggest things that the community can do is to get the churches involved in the school. Yorktown is involved in the school. We adopted Mobile County Training School and Whitley. We're involved in school. I'm 00:38:00there every Wednesday and sometimes Monday through Wednesday. Sometimes Monday through Friday we're there. We've got to get more involved in the school. We've got to get more involved in the school and then we've got to go downtown and tell the people that we want that school. And then we have to encourage the people--your generation to come back to Africatown. Have your children. Bring your family up in Africatown. But, we gotta make sure and ensure that it's safe for them to do that. So once we do our part--and now its not, how do I make this clear? It's not just the city's problem, it's not just the city's fault. We are at fault also. We have to do our part. if we don't educate our children, if we don't teach our children, we don't show them how important Mobile County Training School is, if we don't tell them the history--and I have to commend the 00:39:00alumni, brother Flen and the alumni. They're trying to do some things to encourage and educate our children about what Mobile County Training School is. So, in order for us to--I don't think it's gonna be a High School anytime soon but when we start coming back, when we start bringing our children back to this area. It can go from an elementary school back to high school because we have the population to support that. We have to have a population--now the population may not be there today but all over Mobile county we transport students from one area to another to make sure that school is vibrant--make sure that school is runnin'. We can transport children into Mobile County. This is a historic part of the state of Alabama as well--probably the most historic place in Mobile. So, 00:40:00if we can transport people, children to West Mobile to North Mobile we can transport them here too. We can bring children in. I think there should be a curriculum for Black history as well as Alabama history, White history, pink history, whatever history there is. If there's history in Alabama it should be taught in Alabama history. And my grandmother, Cherokee Indian, her history is not taught. But I can tell you what she did. I can tell you where she went. And I can tell you that she walked through the woods and can tell you every tree that they used for medicine. My grandma's dead. She's been dead for right at twenty years now. But I--when she died she had two pony tails and they came down to the front and that's where she wore her hair unless she was going to church. And if you look at her she is the prettiest--to me-- the prettiest lady that you 00:41:00ever wanna look. She's--she was--that picture was taken she was eighty-six I think. Prettiest--skin is smooth. I mean just a beautiful lady. That's my history. But what's the history here? Joe can tell you, you can tell-- but nobody else knows. We've gotta get the word across Alabama and once we get it across Alabama it'll go across the world.

Mr. Reggie Hill: I think that was going to kind of be my next question for you 'cause I see Africatown as national heirloom. Especially as you mentioned like in Mobile it's probably the most historic area in this city.

Pastor: By far

Reggie: I guess the question would be: in combining the people and legislatures how can we present-- or who. I guess we could even find out who we would present to so that we could get the recognition that's deserved.

Pastor: Well, I go back to--I think the Lord put me through the state troopers 00:42:00for a reason. I got to work with governors, I got to work with legislatures, and I think what we--the best way for us to get any progress in Africatown is we gotta make it known to the city but we can't stop at just the city. We gotta make it known to legislatures and to our governors, to our President. When President Obama was in Office I wrote him a letter. He wrote me back and I still have that letter. We was talking--I was talkin' about slavery. Talkin' about slavery being recognized as a national holiday. You don't hear too much about slavery. Now you hear more about the Holocaust in America than you do of slavery. Slavery in America, to certain individuals, did not exist. But we know it existed. We know that some of our forefathers was hanged from trees. Not long-ago brother Donald was hung on a street now that's called Donald Street. He 00:43:00was hung. He went to school with my Wife. They wont--they'll never forget that. We wont forget. I wont forget the Scottsboro boys. I wont forget they were tried for rape but didn't even touch a lady, didn't even speak to her. I won't forget the Scottsboro boys. You wont forget--and if you ever hear or read it or know it you don't forget. You don't forget your forefathers who were hung from trees. Who were beaten with whips who were dragged behind trucks. Who were dragged behind buggies. You don't forget that kind of stuff. You dont forget people walking from one state to another because they had to to survive. Walkin'. We complain about walking from here to across the street. They walked from one state, across the state, to another. Tears--the Trail of Tears comes through Huntsville. If you ever heard the stories or saw what happened--and my grandma could tell you some things that 00:44:00would curl your toes and you would cry before she was finished. Because, she knew the history and she knew what happened to her forefathers. But until we make it known to the legislatures, to the governor, to the everybody that we see. Until we start talkin' about it and getting on going downtown in the city meetings that they have every Tuesday and tellin' folk. We need to recognize Plateau, Africatown, Magazine Point, Lewis Quarters, Hog Bayou. You need to recognize these places 'cause they're historic in our history. It's not just a slave bar where they had this rock tha the slaves stood on to auction 'em off downtown. It's still there. There's more to Africatown than that. More to a little plaque on the wall right there by the Saenger Theatre talkin' about this 00:45:00slave who ran away and got a boat and crossed and they captured him and put him on this boat and he became free. It's more to the African American story than that. We're proud people. I am. I can't talk for ever body but I know who I am. I know where I came from. I know what I have to do to survive in this world. The least of that is counting down when Im talked to or approached because if we're going to get the recognition that's deserved in this area we're gonna have to stand up, we're gonna have to face opposition. And everything is not going to be peaceful. Now, I believe in Martin Luther King. We gotta be peaceful we gotta do that but I have to tell you. I have to tell you, I can't, I can't just let 00:46:00you slap me. I just can't do that. I gotta either leave or gotta stand my ground and that's the way I am. But, we have to be humble enough to know that sometimes you can't fight back. You gotta put stuff on paper, you gotta put stuff in writing, you gotta talk. We gotta be peaceful, we gotta push for what we believe in, and when we push it, we push it in a peaceful manner. Not fighting, we can't get anywhere fighting. And then we've got to stop hurting eachother. That's one of the biggest keys that is keeping us where we are. We've gotta stop black on black annihilation. Hurting, killing, and destroying. That's what we've gotta do.

Mr. Reggie Hill: That's my last question for you. You said something before the interview that really touched on me about how so many people, even in the city, 00:47:00just don't know the information about here and I really, quite often, even with the young people that I work with. I'm reminded of this past summer. We we're doing the back to school bash and we we're getting some new recruits for the program and one of the guys was his name was-- I can't say it right now but it was an African name. But his friends always called him by his nickname so they didn't know that that was his real name. They thought he was signed up for something he was going to tell me his name. So, they kind of started joking on him. So, I said "stop, y'all don't even know about the last slave, what was that." So, none of them knew you know. Every kid that has come through our program, they haven't known about that either or even you know even how Mobile has the oldest city hall in the country. It's just the little things about the history of our area that's just not shared. How do we--because Ive tried waking up every day figuring it out. How do we inspire the ones that are after 00:48:00us to even care to preserve this. 'cause I know we all are passionate about this area but the young one's have so many other distractions, so many other things that are more appealing to them than the culture or where they come from. How do we inspire them to care?

Pastor: I think the most important....* VIDEO CUTS OFF*

Pastor: ...anybody to want to do something is to make them own it. It's gotta be: ownership. It's gotta be ownership. If they don't own it, it will never be important to them. Joe's truck, that's important to him. But if it was somebody else's truck it ain't so important. This community has to--we have to show ownership and once we own something we're more apt to work with it and make it better. I'll give you an example(?) when we were growing up, our neighbor, 00:49:00they had more than we had. They got to take their mamas car and mama gave them their car, it was his car. He dogged it out. I had to work for my car. I took care of it. I washed it, I waxed it, I babied it. Didn't allow but two or three people in it. You want to know who load up my car? Well bring my car down 'cause that's all I got. When you take ownership of something you are more apt to work hard to make sure that it stays yours. This young lady, Kate, she-- we was talkin. She didn't come from a rich family. She had to get a lot of stuff on her own. But she was gonna be a doctor and she ain't gonna be my doctor, but she's gonna be a doctor. Her goal is to be a doctor. She's taken ownership of that. 00:50:00It's something that she-- when I asked her she-- "I'm going to medical school. I mean it was a proud thing that--and she should be proud. She's taken ownership of that. She's gonna be a doctor. She's gonna be a great doctor. She's gonna be a--because she knows where she came from and she knows how hard it was to get from where she is--to where she was to where she is now. And if she stopped today. If she don't go any further than today. She has accomplished more than anybody expected her to accomplish. So, when you make ownership of something and you make it what you want it then you'll see people coming back. You'll see children standing up talkin' proudly about what they have. And if you wanna know 00:51:00why it takes so long to get things fixed in this community. Because it is a trick--and I'm gonna say the enemy-- trick of the enemy because, and I don't know if y'all had ever read the Willie Lynch. Is it Willie Lynch? I know it's yeah--Willy Lynch handbook. It says if you turn--it was used in slavery. "If you turn the light-skinnd negroes against the dark-skinnd negroes. The one's the work in the house against those who work in the field you'll keep 'em workin'." So, we turned the high echelon against the lower echelon. And you'll find that it works. He wasn't dumb. But we gotta get away from that same mentality. If you look at our community, once we get the people that can help us and show that we can work together and get things done we'll get it done. 00:52:00Thats what goes back to the tax base too. It's not the alumni's responsibility. It's not their responsibility to keep Mobile County Training School up. They work at it but it's not their responsibility. That's the school system of Mobile. It's not the alumni's and the citizens of Africatown's to cut the grass at the community center but we have done. And it should be--the city should do their part. If you wanna keep a --if you wanna keep a person pressed down, if you wanna keep him on the ground and not moving forward or not moving up, don't give him what he needs to move on. And that'll work. And once you read--I don't know if y'all read it, but once you read it you'll see what I'm talkin' about. It's a--it's good readin'. It'll show you some stuff that you had 00:53:00never thought about. But in order for Africatown--and I'm gonna have to go--in order for Africatown to be what Africatown should be we as a people are gonna have to work. And then we're gonna have to demand the same opportunities that West Mobile has. The same tax base that West Mobile has, the same tax dollars that West Mobile receives. We have to demand it and we have to utilize it to the best of our abilities and make Africatown back what is was. Nobody's gonna give us anything and we don't expect you to give us anything. I worked ever since I came in here. I worked--I started workin' dad in construction since I was ten years old. Been workin' ever since. That's where the people here are. They don't mind workin' but you gotta do what you do for the same citizens. If you're gonna give this community five dollars, give that community five. You give that 00:54:00community a thousand dollars, give this community a thousand. Do what you promised. Goin' back to what Martin Luther King said: "America has written us a bad check in this community and it has come back: insufficient funds" because you can't catch it. You can't do anything with it. It's the same check that they wrote to West Mobile that can be cashed but you cant cash this one 'cause it has insufficient funds. So, we have to work. We gotta get busy. We gotta work. We can't depend on everybody else to give. We gotta work and demand what is right for everybody. Not just West Mobile. And I apologize for that

Fiskio: Thank you