Gloria Giles Nault

(00:00) Nathan Carpenter: I am Nathan Carpenter with Oberlin College, I'm here with Ify Ezimora and Santiago Roman, both from Oberlin College, and here with Ms. Gloria Giles, is that?

(00:09) Gloria Giles: Nault.

Carpenter: What is it?

Giles: Giles Nault. 

Carpenter: Nault, Dr. Gloria Giles Nault, who's going to be participating in an oral history interview for the Africatown digital archive. Um, it is November 24th, we're at the Battle House Hotel in Mobile, Alabama. I just wanna say for the camera as well that your participation in the interview is voluntary, you can choose to not respond to any question, you can choose to end the interview at any point. I just wanted to clarify that before we begin.

Carpenter: So I guess to get started, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your family history and what you know of it as it pertains to Africatown or more generally as well.

Giles: Okay, my family were called Free Men of Color. And there were about six or eight families, and if you wish (01:00), I could give you the whole list of 00:01:00all the Free Men of Color that relate to me and my family. The Adams and the Giles were first cousins because our great-grandmothers were Native American women who married other men and developed the two families. I was told by Mr. Henry Williams that my family used to make furniture and ship it back to Europe inlaid with Mother-of-Pearl long before even slavery. So, it's a Native American based family. 

Carpenter: So do you know how far back your family goes in Africatown specifically?

Giles: oh, let's see how many generations did my brother- My brother did a whole scan of (02:00), he did a lot of research, and he went back about eight 00:02:00generations and we were still there. Um, my father used to steal persimmons from Uncle Cudjo. So, you know they were long there. And I'm told that when the Africans were released there, they kind of helped them understand what it's like in America and help them to integrate themselves and help create Africatown.

Carpenter: So, it's one of those stories that you heard growing up, the persimmons and all that? Yeah?

Giles: Yeah, lots of good stories like that, yeah. My father was mmm, now I would say precocious, back then he was considered very naughty.

Carpenter: Mhm, in what way?

Giles: He liked to play jokes.

Carpenter: Uh-huh. 

Like when he was a young boy, he wanted to see the ankles of the ladies because they wore long skirts, and in the evening, the ladies (03:00) would all get 00:03:00their pots and they'd carry it on their heads to go and get water in the creek, and so he took a black stocking and stuffed it like a snake, put it across the path, and as the ladies went down to get the water he didn't do anything, but when they were coming back he'd pull the snake across the path, and the ladies pulled up their skirts to run, and he was so happy he started laughing, so he got caught.

Carpenter: Mhm.

Giles: And ah, all kinds of little stories like that, and they said that his father used to make him lay on the steps and he would take the side of a handsaw and spank him with it because of all the things he did, so then that was a celebration. And it continued until the end of his life, playing tricks and doing things like that.

Carpenter: And you said that he knew Cudjo Lewis, is that right?

Giles: Yes, he did.

Carpenter: Did he talk about that a lot?

Giles: Not very much,  except (04:00), you know, how he talked? He put an 'e' 00:04:00on the end of everything, like "I gonna eatee you". And, um, they were in his persimmon tree, and he was talking to his animals, and he looked at the pig and said, "I'm going to eatee you," and he looked at the chicken and said, "I'm going to eatee you," and there was a pigeon and he said, "Oh don't you laugh over dere 'cause I'm gonna eatee you, too," and they (my father and his friend in the tree) started laughing, and he (Uncle Cudjo) got the pitchfork and he kept them in the tree from that day 'til the next morning.

Carpenter: Oh my goodness.

Giles: Yeah. (laughing) So they learned their lesson until they decided to steal his watermelons.

Carpenter: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Giles: Yeah.

Carpenter: So, then, did you have lots of family come through Mobile County Training School as well then?

Giles: Well, all my brother and sisters. I have a brother.  Well, my younger sister didn't because that was when the schools were divided (05:00)- but an 00:05:00older brother, I brought his Mocotian (school year book) to be seen here. And two sisters, I was the last one in 1968.

Carpenter: And what was- I don't know, what was your experience at Mobile County Training School?

Giles: Oh, it was great, it was a time for me of freedom. I had very, very strict parents so going to school was like my release. Even though there was lots of rules at school that kept us straight, but I liked learning. But, originally I was a child that was challenged. I was considered my mother's slow-child, and it was very difficult for me to read. And no matter how I tried, I could not read. But and so people would say, "Oh, Gloria can't read," (06:00) 00:06:00and I continued to remember that, but there was one man we call Mr. Danny, and he would come over every day and sit with me, and he would say, "Gloria, you can read." And we would try and try and try every day. And finally when I was in the sixth grade I was looking out the window, and I was in the D-reading group, um, and I was thinking about what Mr. Danny told me and I said, "Today I can read." I went to my reading group, I read the D-book; I went from that day reading in the D-reading group to reading at the college level because I finally believed it. And I promised myself that day that I would get the highest degree I could. And I did.

Carpenter: What degree was that?

Giles: Ph.D.

Carpenter: Okay.

Giles: Yeah.

Carpenter: I'm curious, so that kind of- as we interview folks, we hear about, kind of, these figures in the community (07:00) who were so, kind of, 00:07:00instrumental in people's school experiences and childhood more generally. It was Mr. Danny, you said was what it was?

Giles: Yes, he was very significant. His name was Danny Wilson, but we called people by their first name and just put Mr. or Mrs. in front it, or Auntie, or mommee. I had lots of mommies. 

Carpenter: Were there other folks like Mr. Danny in the community who were kind of role models or inspirations for you?

Giles: Lots were in the church, and my parents. In the church, we started speaking publicly, as very, very tiny kids. We would get an Easter speech, and the first Easter speech was "Christ Rose on Easter Morning". And every child had that speech, but it didn't matter to the congregation. Each child was applauded (08:00), and they'd go, (clapping) "Yeah, sister, yeah, yeah." And, you know, I 00:08:00remember that as being three years old and saying something that everybody approved of. And from there, I studied and continued to speak, enter all the oratorical contests, and I became president of Toastmasters, and I became one of the national champions as a result.

Carpenter: Was this in Union Baptist, was that the church?

Giles: Yorktown Baptist.

Carpenter: Yorktown. Yorktown Baptist.

Giles: My father's father was one of the people that started Yorktown Baptist Church under a grapevine, and so my father continued there, and when he married my mother, she had to agree that the children would go to his church. So, we would attend his church and afterwards then we had to go to her church until it was out. So Sunday, from Sunday school 'til about three was church. Too long, but the first (09:00) Sunday was the best because we got ice cream after church. 00:09:00So, we loved that time.

Carpenter: And so, this sounds like there was a strong sense of family connection to Yorktown. Is that right?

Giles: Yes, very much, very much. Every holiday, everything was associated with there, and supporting you, speaking publicly, and learning.

Carpenter: So then, after you went to Mobile Country Training School and you graduated, why don't you first- what kinds of things were you involved in at the school during high school?

Giles: We had a dance class, and if you were selected to be in this dance class, then you performed at half-times(at football games) and different events for the communities. For instance, during Mardi Gras, at the different balls (10:00) you 00:10:00performed, and it was wonderful because my mother loved dancing and one of the things that she had my father to agree to was that he would not stop her from dancing because she liked to dance. But for some reason, she allowed (my brother and sisters) everybody to dance but me. But when Mrs. Roberts got permission for me to dance, it was a first for me, and it was another opening into a whole new world of dance,  so I was able to perform. I also joined the La Rosa Roja Club, and I had never been in a club, and we traveled. We went to Miami. Unfortunately that was where I went every summer because when we were children my mother said she wanted us to go to the four corners of the United States so she could visit. So there was a sister in Miami. Each year I was put on a bus starting at age eight (11:00), and I was responsible for my sister and my two nieces, and we 00:11:00would ride forty-eight hours on the Greyhound bus to Miami, Florida to my sister. And spend a month in Miami making new friends there and then coming back to Plateau.

Carpenter: Did you all travel to other places together?

Giles: One of my sisters first went to Miami, and later one went to Rhode Island, and so then I went to Rhode Island. My sister was asked by Martin Luther King to go there because they wanted someone to come and integrate the schools, and so she went there.

Carpenter: And so, did they know each other? Your sister and Martin Luther King?

Giles: No, he called Tuskegee Institute, and they recommended her there, and so then he called her.

Carpenter: I'm curious, you mentioned that experience of dance in high school. You said it opened up the world of dance for you?

Giles: Yes.

Carpenter: Is that something that remains important (12:00) for you?

Giles: Important and fun. Last night was such fun dancing. Unfortunately I married a non-dancer. 

Carpenter: And so then after Mobile County Training School, what did you do next after you graduated?

Giles: Next,  When we were born, our mother told us what we were going to become. My brother was to become a minister; my sister, there were two before me, the first one, was to become a teacher; to the next one she said, "You're vivacious, so I'm gonna leave it up to you;" and she told me to become a nurse. So, I knew that's what I would do. After graduation from high school, I went to Mastin School of Nursing, and I was the first Black to be admitted to that school.

Carpenter: So, at that time, I guess, there were a lot of students (13:00) 00:13:00involved with the civil rights movement around the country. Is that something that- that you were involved with as well at that time?

Giles: I have a writing that I can share with you, I can mail it to you later, but my sister was interested in it. But here in Mobile, people didn't protest too much against making efforts. So, one day my sister decided that she would take me to Kress after the big incident where the kids sat on the stools to order food in Kress- in another city- and were attacked. So she decided one day when she was allowed to take me to the dentist on the bus that we would come back to town and go to Kress and sit on the stools and have a hot dog.  I was young, so I didn't know the significance of it. For me, it was just the most exciting day that my big sister took me on an adventure (14:00) that my mother 00:14:00had never taken me on because prior to that my mother would take us shopping, and she would buy a hot dog from Woolworth but not sit or anything, we had to stand outside the building and eat it because at that time we were not allowed to even sit in the park or walk through it. 

Carpenter: And so, how old were you when your sister took you to get the hot dog?

Giles: Hmm, I had to be around seven.

Carpenter: Okay. And so then you mentioned, you said, you were the only Black student in the nursing school?

Giles: Yes.

Carpenter: What was that experience like for you?

Giles: Well, it was great because I just blended in and was accepted. There were some events that they didn't understand: for instance, I would go walking in the neighborhood, and I was called in by the director and told it was very unsafe (15:00), and I had to explain to her that that was a community of educators, and 00:15:00friends of my parents, friends of my sisters, and that I had an aunt there. It was fine to walk in that community. But being the first African-American for them to have there, they didn't realize that it was okay for me even though they didn't feel it was secure for the other students. So, it was different for them, that was a little learning curve.

Carpenter: Mhm. And so after nursing school, did you go, did you start practicing as a nurse?

Giles: I worked for a year, with the cardiologist that taught us cardiology, in  cardiac catheterizations. And then I went to medical college at Georgia to get my B.S. in nursing. After I got my B.S.N., I (16:00) decided to stay there 00:16:00and get my masters. Then I wanted to go on and get my doctorate in cardiology or thoracic nursing, but I got a better invitation, to get married.  I stopped after my B.S.N. And after I got married I got my masters at University of South Alabama. At that time there were only two buildings and they were just starting it. It was great; I did get my masters, but I got it in Educational Media with an emphasis on Non-Verbal Communication in Nursing. At the time of my graduation, just prior to it, I had an invitation to go to a yachting events at the request of the president of the university (University of South Alabama). You see, when I was in nursing school, my date to the prom was (17:00) Jay 00:17:00Cooper, who became the mayor of Prichard, Alabama. I ended up marrying his brother who was General Gary Cooper, who became the Commissioner of Pensions and Security for the State of Alabama which was a first. So, I had a lot of opportunities that other people didn't. One was we would go out on the university's yacht, and so my graduation was important, they wanted to make that public. So I did get my masters with a little emphasis. Earlier, because of the things I did after my graduation from nursing, the Mayor of Mobile did present me a gold key to the city which I keep in my safe deposit box. And it is real gold, so I was surprised when I did find out that it was.

Carpenter: So then, how did you and your husband end up meeting?

Giles: Through his brother (laughing). (18:00) When I was on a prom date with 00:18:00his brother Jay. His brother Jay introduced us because we knew Jay was going to be married,  we were friends he was going to be my date for the prom 'cause I didn't have anyone. Because I spoke like my white classmates, like those around me when I would call the home of young men that were Black- if their mothers answered they said, (gasp) "You're dealing with a little white girl and you can't see her." They didn't believe that I was Black because of my speech pattern. So it was very difficult for me to date those of my own color. But Jay wasn't afraid, so Jay took me to my prom.

Carpenter: And I'm curious, you said you got your Masters in Education?

Giles: Educational Media.

Carpenter: What led you to that (19:00), that path after coming through nursing school?

Giles: When I was teaching, I taught at Providence School of Nursing; they wouldn't accept me as a student, but it was okay for me to come back as a teacher. And one of the other teachers was in that study, so I decided that I wanted to see what it was like, and I went and I liked it. I loved media. I loved working with equipment, I loved taking it apart; when I took the test for the military, they said I should be an airplane mechanic or a doctor. I didn't choose either of those.

Carpenter: Did you think about either of those?

Giles: No. I was told to be a nurse from the day I was born, and we all did what our mother, my mother said.

Carpenter: And then you mentioned you went on to get a Ph.D.?

Giles; Yes. From the University of Connecticut (20:00), and I got it in 00:20:00Curriculum and Instruction, plus Non-Verbal Communication and Higher Education Administration with my foreign language being Statistics.

Carpenter: So you moved around quite a bit, it sounds like, after you left Africatown.

Giles: Yeah, I did. Now I live in Hawai'i. 

Carpenter: How'd you end up there?

Giles: How did I end up there? When I was a child, I told my parents I was in the wrong place in the wrong time, and I would say to them: I said, "I have to be near the water," and they thought, "Well, you're near the bay and the river," we could hear the ships all the time, my father took me fishing, and they didn't understand it (me) . And when I was nine years old, I heard the word Hawai'i, and that it had become a state. And I said, "That's where I belong, (21:00) I 00:21:00have to be there." And I got the name as being the weird child (laughing) of my parents, but I professed all that time, and when I had a daughter I told her all the time that we had to go to Hawai'i because I needed to go home. When I got my Ph.D., the way they would announce that you had made it is they would come out and say, "Dr. Giles, congratulations. Now what will you do?" And before I could answer, my daughter said, "We're going to Hawai'i." And that's what we did. 

Carpenter: How old was your daughter then?

Giles: She was three.

Carpenter: So she was mostly raised in Hawai'i, then.

Giles: Yeah.

Carpenter: And did you come back once you moved there? Did you come back to visit Mobile much at all?

Giles: Not very much. The first time I came back was with a grant from the National Endowment for Humanities (22:00), and that was to do research in Mobi- 00:22:00in Africatown, and so I recorded love stories and philosophies of people that were there, and now none of those are there- I still have the tapes, and lots- briefcases- of information that I collected. I didn't do anything with it because after I became injured, and it was just a few years ago that I've been able to be up and moving and traveling.

Carpenter: What-what were you gonna do with that information that you collected?

Giles: To write it into a book. Because there were only a few people who at that time were willing to talk and share their stories because they had shared those stories; and people took it, wrote books, made money from it, and nothing came back, so they were afraid to do it. And my plan was to return the money to the (23:00), to the community.

Carpenter: And did you feel like there was more of, kind of, that sense of trust 'cause you'd come from Africatown yourself?

Giles: From there, yeah.

Carpenter: Yeah.

Giles: And I had cousins and things that collected their information, and they wanted to tell their stories, stories that I had never heard. Has anyone told you about the Sandbar?

Carpenter: I don't think so, no.

Giles: There was a sandbar that the young people would sneak to, or those that engaged or newly married that had to live with their parents, and they told me that ninety percent of the people in Africatown were conceived on the Sandbar. (everyone laughing) So, that's where they would go and my father would loan his car to his nephew and he would go to visit this girl, and they secretly got married (24:00), and her parents didn't know it until she became pregnant 00:24:00because she still lived at home and he still lived with his parents, He went to the military. Except my father who would loan him his car, they(her parents) couldn't understand how they had gotten married and she could conceived a child without them knowing because she was only allowed to go to school and church for choir practice (alone). That's when they would see each other, after choir practice. 

Carpenter: So it sounds like you got a lot of good stuff during that research.

Giles: Wonderful things, wonderful stories.

Carpenter: Yeah.

Giles: Wonderful love stories that I had never heard. 'Cause I only knew my parents love story, and it was a really wonderful one, too.

Carpenter: Do you mind sharing it? Are you comfortable?

Giles: My father had been married before, and she (his wife) died in childbirth. So, he had seen my mother and was very interested, Once a week he would go to visit (25:00) my grandfather so that he could have just a peek at his beloved 00:25:00Annie, and she would remain in the kitchen, but he could see her from the kitchen (meant living room). And (he) wondered just what it would be like to actually hold her hand. Finally one day, he was allowed to take her out to the water during one of the church picnics, but she was afraid of water and he knew that, so he led her into the water just above her ankles, and he promised her that if she would not say that she would marry him, that he would put his head under the water and he wouldn't come up until he had drowned, and that she would have to then be in the water alone. So she consented to marry him. And she never, ever said that she loved him to anybody until he was dying (26:00). And 00:26:00then she said "I loved him all those years, but I never said it! I just said, 'He worked his roots and frightened me into consenting to marry him.'" And that's the way we thought it was. But he agreed not to teach us to swim because of her fear, and he agreed not to teach us the Native American ways or to eat wild foods because she didn't want us to become little wild Native American kids. Because she thought it was tough enough to be a descendant of one minority, but to have the practices and be the descendants of two minorities would be too difficult. 

Carpenter: So did you know much of your Native American family growing up?

Giles: I knew the family.

Carpenter: Okay.

Giles: But not allowed to have the practices.

Carpenter: `Okay, okay. And were you close with them?

Giles: Very close, very close. Especially my Aunt Rita (27:00), and across the 00:27:00street was my father's first cousin which was Mommee, so Mommee was another mother. My grandmother on my mother's side was Mommee, and then we had a lot of Momma, like Momma Rosie. So, all of these were my mothers, which was kinda difficult as a child because you didn't get away with anything. And when you did do something wrong, that lady would catch you and spank you and then take you to your mother, and then you got a spanking for making that woman have to stop her day to spank you and bring you home, and then you got another one for doing wrong. So it was horrible, having so many mothers. But now I see it was very wonderful. And that was one of the reasons I wanted my daughter to grow up in Hawai'i because every woman is your auntie (28:00) and every man is your uncle, 00:28:00so she had just as many eyes on her. 

Carpenter: So is that community that you kind of found in Hawai'i, is that similar to the community that you had growing up in Africatown?

Giles: Very similar. The teachings are very similar, the sayings and the practices are very similar because they're considered Native Americans as well.

Carpenter: And is that part of what really drew you to- I mean, did you know that, that going there that that was gonna be part of what you would find? That similarity?

Giles: No, I just knew it was home, and I needed to go home.

Carpenter: And so as, you know, you've been moving around and kind of had your, you know, life in Hawai'i, did you stay in touch with your classmates at all during that time from Mobile County Training School?

Giles: Just Anderson, and later I found Christine and Sandra, but it was through the community. Yeah, through the (29:00) MCTS newsletters and communications 00:29:00that were received.

Carpenter: And so, what I guess is it like for you to be back here now, and what does this weekend mean to you?

Giles: It's wonderful. It's wonderful seeing everybody. I was hesitant because I thought no one would recognize me and I wouldn't recognize them. But I did, and so I'm so excited, yeah. It's great being back, you know, and hugging and just holding the people that I was so close to for eighteen years of my life.

Carpenter: And you went to the prom here, right? That- the first prom?

Giles: Yes, yeah. 

Carpenter: What was that like?

Giles: With Anderson Flen.

Carpenter: Yeah, he told us, he told us.

Giles: It was wonderful, but Anderson was so into philosiphying that he sat and watched this fountain and philosiphied the whole time (30:00). We only had one dance.

Carpenter: (laughing) So, um, what does it mean then being back in the same building now fifty years later for the reunion?

Giles: Um, it's wonderful. My uncle was the bellhop here from age- I think it was fifteen- to the day he died. And he, he was Creole (black + French), most of the women in my family have last French names. I actually have married a man from Paris, but it was a Japanese arranged marriage in Hawai'i. It's my second marriage. So it's great to be back; I wish I could see my uncle here and see him working, but I can't, but it's wonderful to have the memories (31:00), and to be 00:31:00in a place that I would not have been allowed in in earlier years of my life.

Carpenter: Mhm. Um, great, well I don't want to take up too much of your time, I don't know if there's anything you wanted to add at all about, I mean I'm sure you have so many more stories from the research you've done and stuff that you've heard growing up.

Giles: I have lots of wonderful stories but I think it's better now that I can look back on it. As a kid, I just knew it was, everybody was too strict and too- too much watching us- but looking back, it was wonderful growing up being secure, not having the fears that kids can have now, and just knowing you were loved. I, I- we grew up (32:00) by other standards as being poor, but we all 00:32:00thought we were wealthy. We thought that we were very, very wealthy. And now I know we were- it may not have been money, but we were prosperous.

Carpenter: In what way?

Giles: In the family connections, in the life we had, in the love and being a part of the whole. It was always said that if one can eat, all can eat. Our doors were never locked. My father would fish: the first fish went to widows, older women, then older men, then women with children and no husband. We got the tiny little bony fish, but we were convinced that those were the best fish because they were small, and they were sweeter. But in fact (33:00) they were 00:33:00the only leftovers. But everybody would eat, and because our door was not locked, when we ate there were two little boys that came in the door every morning and said to my mother, "Grits?" and they were fed, and anybody who walked in was fed. And I think that that was wonderful. And now where I live in Hawai'i, they say there's always a space at our table, there's always room for one more, even if you have to sleep on the floor. Just like at home, there's always room for one more. And so, I live in love as I lived in love. Now I live in what's called Aloha, where you share your breath, and if to share your breath, which is your ha, your spirit. That was how I grew up, sharing your spirit.

Carpenter: And so, I'm curious also (34:00) this, this research you that you did 00:34:00about people's love stories, if you have- if you're planning on doing anything with everything that you collected.

Giles: I just sold my house, my land, and everything, with the purpose of dedicating myself to writing and quilting because my mother was a quilter.

Carpenter: But you're gonna stay in Hawai'i? Is that your plan?

Giles: I'm going to stay in Hawai'i. I love Hawai'i, and now I just have two homes. And I have an Ohana, which is a Hawai'i family, and I love them just as much as I love my birth family. It's great to have two homes.

Carpenter: Yeah. Alright. Well, unless you have anything else to add?

Giles: Well, I could talk on and on, but I know there are others you must interview, so I look forward to sharing written documents (35:00) with you if 00:35:00you so wish?

Carpenter: Yes, that'd be great, and we can give you actually our contact information so we can be in touch. 

Giles: Okay. That would be wonderful, and thank you for this opportunity, and thank you for doing this. 

Carpenter: Yeah. Thank you for your time, this was awesome.