Mrs. Mae Jones Interview

Mrs. Mae Jones: *clears throat* Let me get my throat.

Janet Fiskio: So, this is Janet Fiskio with the Africatown Digital Archive project we're talking with Ms. Mae Jones and its January fourth, 2018. We're at Yorktown Church in Africatown. Um, so thank you so much. And I feel like I owe you a special thank you because you're the reason I'm here.

Mrs. Jones: Yes, I remember we met in Canada.

Fiskio: Um, could you tell us--I'm remembering that you said you were born in Detroit. Can you tell us where you were born and also what your maiden name was?

Mrs. Jones: Okay, I wasn't born in Detroit I was raised in Detroit. I was born in a place called Ackerman, Mississippi. I was raised in Detroit and, uh, went to school there and met an Africatown man, married him, and that's how I ended up in Africatown. I've been here since 1975.

Fiskio: Okay, and what was the name of the Africatown man that you married?

Mrs. Jones: His name was Willard Jones. And my maiden name is Maxwell. Yes

Fiskio: Okay, and how did your family get from Mississippi up to Detroit?

Mrs. Jones: They migrated there. My grandmother, then my mother moved there. And that's where she raised us, in Detroit.

Fiskio: About what--about when was that.

Mrs. Jones: That was back in 60s 50s.

Fiskio: There were a lot of people back then, right?

Mrs. Jones: Right, 'cuz I graduated from high school in 1956. So that was--my mother went there back in the 40s. So, I graduated from Northwestern High in 1956.

Fiskio: And what Detroit like back then?

Mrs. Jones: It was boomin'. *laughs* That was the auto industry and Detroit was...boomin'. Detroit at that time was like Africatown was when I came here. There was millions of people there. Jobs were everywhere. Anybody who wanted a 00:02:00job could get a job. It was just a thriving city. So, just like when I came to Africatown in 1975 this was a very thriving community. It had grocery stores, it had beauty shops, it had barber shops. We just--it was just--it was amazing to come into this community and see the type of community that it was. But, then the industry that was here. That made it a hazardous place to live because it was--it was just terrible. Sometimes you would go out your door and you couldn't see five feet in front of you because of stuff [debris] that was fallin' from the sky. You would wash your clothes, put them on the line, and you would have 00:03:00to take 'em in and wash 'em again from the debris that [because of the debris] --the soot and debris that was covering your clothes. You had to wash them more than once. It was a thriving community, there were people everywhere. Neighbors was very close. Workin' conditions--people was workin' and just about a store on every corner or some kind of business, just about on every corner. You didn't have to go out the community to get anything that you needed. There was a laundry mat, a cleaners, the barber shop, and the beauty shop. Everything that you needed was right here in this community. But now, there's nothin' here. You can't buy anything in Africatown. Because the businesses closed down, people started moving away. It's just nothing like it used to be.

Fiskio: So, you said you moved here in the seventies?

Mrs. Jones: Seventy--I came here in 1975.

Fiskio: So, um, what are some of the things you remember about Africatown back in the seventies and who are some of the people you met.

Mrs. Jones: Well one person who I know who was very active in the community. was my husband's uncle Archie D. Bradley. There was [indecipherable] Hubbard. There was--the pastor here was. What was his name Joe? Reverand. I can't think of his name. Anyways there was a very active minister here.

Major Joe Womack: Reverend Mathews.

Mrs. Jones: Reverend Mathews was the pastor at the time. But there was a very active 00:05:00minister in the community that was active in the community as well as justice for the community and that was Reverend Robert Hope. He was very active in community affairs. Other people, like I said, my husband's uncle Archie D. Bradley, they had a neighborhood watch, and you didn't have to worry about anybody breakin' in. They met every month and people would be out in the evening and they would be walkin' around through the neighborhood making sure the homes were safe. If you needed anything, they were there. Because it was a large group 00:06:00that was participating. You could look out your window and see somebody walkin' past and you would know that that was someone from that group. It was just very safe and, like I said, anything that you need or that people wanted all you had to do was--you could walk to the store, walk to the cleaners. Anything that you want you could walk here in the community and get what you needed. They had stores here on Bay Bridge Road, a barbershop, they had a gas station, had a couple gas stations out here. Whatever you needed the community had at that time. Then it just started goin' away.

Fiskio: So those businesses, they were owned by people who lived here?

Mrs. Jones: They were owned by Black community people. They were owned by community people. There was a barbershop that was sittin' right over there, 00:07:00right in front of the church. There was another barbershop there on [Center] street. There was a grocery store right there. There was a laundry mat right across over there. Anything that you needed was right here in the community. And the Post Fffice. We had a Post Office right there on Bay Bridge Road. But now there's nothin'! There's nothin' here now. You can't buy anything in Africatown. You have to go to Pritchard, Chickasaw, Saraland to get anything that you needed. You had to go out of the community to get it.

Fiskio: It sounds like when you got here then--it sounds like it was a wonderful place to live. What are some of your best memories from that time?

Mrs. Jones: Some of the best memories... seein' the children out there playin'. 00:08:00At that time children didn't stay in the house. They were out jumpin' rope and playin' ball. Just in the community. But now you don't see children in the streets anymore. You don't' see 'em out there. They're in the house on the computer or something. But at that time, they were out in the streets playin'. Playin' hopscotch *laughs* jump rope! You know all these--that's what the children were doin' at the time. You don't see that anymore and it's really--Mobile County Training School was thrivin' and Whitley school was right there on Edward street. Mobile County was right up there. The two schools were here and they were full. Both schools. And a lot of the teachers were from right here in Africatown. Yes they were the teachers lived right here. I know Mrs. Russel, [Indecipherable] B Hubbard they lived right here in Africatown. So the children saw the teachers everyday. The churches was boomin'. Yorktown would be overflowin' with people. Hopewell, Union Baptist. This was really a thriving community at the time. Now *laughs* it's just...

Reggie Hill: What do you think it was that drove the people out?

Mrs. Jones: The environment...So many people were dying from different diseases. Lung cancer, asthma, breathing problems. All kinds of diseases, people, 00:10:00families--I think in my husband's family there were about four people that have died from cancer. I lost my husband last year from lung cancer. His sister--he had a sister died from cancer. A couple of uncles that died from cancer. It's just--the environment made people leave because they were losing so many family members and they was having so many health problems themselves, you know? Businesses start closin' down because a lot of times the owners were passin', were dyin' and there was no one else there to pick it up. So, the community just went down, down, down. And now even the buildings where the stores were there are torn down. There's nothin' there now to let you know what used to be here. 00:11:00We had two gas stations right there on Bay bridge road. The post office was there. It was just--like I said anything that you needed was right here in this community at that time. It was a thrivin' community.

Reggie Hill: You mentioned the neighborhood watch that was earlier. 'Cuz I remember when I was little me and my grandma would leave and she wouldn't even lock the do'. I was tryin' to figure out what was the mentality then and why is it so different today?

Mrs. Jones: Well, those people died out and there was no one to pick up where they dropped off because when they died their families--most of their families moved away. And so, there was no one to pick up where they left off. Like you 00:12:00said, you didn't have to [lock doors] -- people didn't lock their doors. *laughs*

Reggie Hill: I remember that vividly, I would be shocked

Mrs. Jones: Yeah, they didn't lock their doors and windows was open, you know? At that time the air conditionings weren't that popular, so your windows were up, your doors was open, you know? You could walk past anybody's house and just look in the house because there was no doors locked or anything like that. And everyone--everybody knew everybody. "Hello, how you doin', come in!" You know, people sat around, come out and talk to each other. It was just--it was nothin' like it is now. Now you better lock your doors *laughs* "Jesus" Yeah, so it's just you know, a lot of time families, the mother and father might die. The 00:13:00children just leave the house there. They wouldn't stay in the house. And the house would just decay because they didn't want to stay in Africatown. They wanted to get away from the health hazards. So, they just moved away and let their families' houses go down. That's why you have so many empty lots because the house just decayed and that was it. The school, they closed Whitley. Moved Whitley to Pritchard.

Fiskio: That was the high school?

Mrs. Jones: That was the middle school. Mobile County Training School, I think they had--the year before I came here--two years before I came here, they made that a middle school. It was a high school and it was the first Black high 00:14:00school in the state of Alabama, so I've been told. So that's history right there. That's something to be proud of about your community is to have the first Black high school. And there are a lot of people who have come out of Mobile County Training School that are in high positions today. Because a lot of very smart people came out of MCTS- VIDEO CUTS OFF

Fiskio: Sorry for the interruption. Can we come back to where we were? *Jones laughs* You were talking about some of the people who graduated from the school and how there have been a lot of really incredible achievements that people have made in Africatown. I'm wondering what are some things that you would--what are some of the stories that you think are really important?

Mrs. Jones: I need some help on that...

Fiskio: Okay. *laughs*

Mrs. Jones: So, Joe, Reggie, some of the people that finished from County [are important stories]

Fiskio: How about some of the people you knew, that lived here.

Mrs. Jones: I didn't really know them. I know of them. But they *points to Reggie and Joe* would know them better than me.

Fiskio: So, we got to interview Joe yesterday so I'm interested in hearing maybe some of the stories that you think are important. The one's you know, or the people you've met.

Mrs. Jones: Well I think about Henry Williams. He was a very knowledgeable person of the history of Africatown. He ran a barber shop down there in Magazine 00:16:00Point and he had a lot of history of Africatown. Someone else.... y'all help me.... someone else that did something *laughs*

Reggie Hill: I guess I'm tryin' to see where you're going.

Mrs. Jones: Well what is Anderson's profession? Anderson Flen.

Major Joe Womack: What was his career in?

Mrs. Jones: Yes.

Reggie Hill: He was in health care at the state of Georgia.

Mrs. Jones: Health care? he taught health care?

Major Womack: Nah, he worked for the state health [Department & Center for Disease Control]

Mrs. Jones: Health care provider? Anderson Flen, he's also the president of 00:17:00Mobile County Alumni. Cleon Jones, he played with the New York Mets in 1969 champions--world series champ. What was the other guy's name who lived 'round here on...huh?

Reggie Hill: Talkin' about Agee?

Mrs. Jones: Tommy Agee. These--they were from Africatown and they made good and came back home to here. So uh, but there are more but I can't--I can't think of them right now.

Fiskio: That's okay. When you moved here, I'm thinking, you were talking about how the place was booming and what a great community it was. When you remember walking around, did people have gardens and how did they decorate their houses?

Mrs. Jones: Yes, they did. Yes, people had gardens inside the house, in back of the house. At Christmas time it was beautiful out here at Christmas time. All the houses were decorated. Mardi Gras time every house was decorated. They would have a parade comin' through the community. Durin' Mardi Gras time. And that was really something to see. [I think it was the Alumni parading]

Fiskio: Can you tell me more about that 'cuz I'm not from a place where there's Mardi Gras. So, what was that like?

Mrs. Jones: Well they would be dressed in costumes, Mardi Gras costumes. And the band would be playin' and then they would have the majorettes, they would be leadin' the group that--It was really somethin' to see. They would go all throughout the community paradin' so that everybody could just sit on your porch 00:19:00and watch them come through your community. It was really somethin' to see. That was really beautiful. They did that at Mardi Gras time then sometime at Christmas time they would have events that was goin' on. Black history month they always had a lot of activities goin' on at the community center and they would give you a lot of information on Africatown. What it was all about, who was doin' what and everything. It was just amazin' to see events--events that used to occur out here. Yes, it was really somethin' to see.

Fiskio: It sounds like there was a lot of pride in Africatown.

Mrs. Jones: It was. It was a lot of pride in Africatown. People was just proud---and then the ones that moved away they would come back and participate and you know, it was just--it was really something to see. It was amazing. how 00:20:00people participate and get involved in what was going on. It was really---but now you don't have anything. *laughs* You don't have any of that now. You don't---at Mardi Gras time---the different churches doin' Black History Month, different churches have programs on Black History. But as far as the community getting involved doing things you don't see that anymore.

Fiskio: Although you're still involved. You do a lot.

Mrs. Jones: Yes, I'm involved... in some activities. *laughs* So it keeps me goin'.

Fiskio: So, since I was there, I was wondering if you could tell the story of going up to the healing walk. 'Cuz that's part---you came there as part of MEJAC right?

Mrs. Jones: Yes, I was. We um, that was in what, three years ago?

Fiskio: 2014?

Mrs. Jones: fourteen. 2014. MEJAC, Ramsay, got a grant and they sent us to?

Fiskio: Alberta

Mrs. Jones: Alberta, Canada. To the healin' walk. That was somethin' to see how that area had been destroyed. We travelled for miles and it was nothin' but empty space you would see those trucks and machinery out there clearin' the land where homes used to be. And the people there, it was no more residential area in Alberta. All we saw there was hotels, people livin' in hotels. They didn't have 00:22:00any kind of community activity. It was just--it was really terrible to see how that community had been destroyed by the pipeline. All you saw was open field and that also reminds me of three years ago, four years ago, they ran a pipeline across Mobile County Training School playground. The children---that spring the children could not go outside and play. They couldn't have outside activities because they were layin' the pipeline across it. And that pipeline is still under the ground at Mobile County Training School.

Fiskio: When did the--when did the community find out about that pipeline?

Mrs. Jones: When they was layin' it. *laughs*

Fiskio: So they didn't talk to you about it before?

Mrs. Jones: The community didn't know anything about it. When we knew anything, 00:23:00they were diggin' goin' across the playground layin' pipeline. So, that was--that was terrible. The kids--it's springtime, you know you look forward to spring, the kids gettin' outside, playin' basketball--I mean football, baseball. They couldn't do it because they were layin' the pipeline. So that was--and that's was had destroyed Alberta were those pipelines. People didn't have--you didn't see any homes. None whatsoever. You didn't see any homes. All you saw was wide open space and machinery. That's all you saw.

Fiskio: So was it the pipeline that made you decide to go up to Canada?

Mrs. Jones: Well, Ramsay [MEJAC]--yes, that was decided on, us going to Canada to see what the pipelines had done there and what could happen here. *Phone 00:24:00Rings and video ends*

Fiskio: Sorry, so yeah let's go back to the pipeline. So, they came in, they built a pipeline, you went up to see what had happened in Canada. What made you decide to go? 'Cuz they must have decided who was gonna go from MEJAC.

Mrs. Jones: Well, I was asked to go. I was one of the people that was asked to go, and I just wanted to see what it was like and then we came back and we decided--we would go down and meet with the city council. And we also met with the county commissioner because at that time they are anticipating putting tanks across the street on Paper Mill Road international laws and we went down and let 00:25:00them know how we felt about that. And so far, it's on hold but we don't know how long that's gonna last but we went down---we had ministers from---the pastors from the community. They went down and they spoke, they supported us. So, we were able to stop it (indecipherable) and properly finished. Stopped the permit. They wanted to put fifty tanks across from the school and this community. And you know in the event of a tornado or lighting hit one of those tanks, this community would be destroyed because there would be no time to evacuate. So, we really let them know what a danger it was to the community. So, so far, they 00:26:00have not done anything else about that. But, they are also dredging the river down here too. Like Reverend said, the dredgin' that they dredge up, they're gonna put it right out past Africatown Bridge. And we would be inhaling all of that debris comin' from the bottom of the Mobile River. So, it's always a constant battle tryin' to keep hazardous industry from comin' into this community when the city should be proud of the community. It seems as if the city's goal is to destroy the community. Why not preserve history? History is 00:27:00very important but this Black history doesn't seem to be important to them at all. So, that's what MEJAC, C.H.E.S.S., and the churches of Africatown is up against. Is tryin' to preserve what's left of the community. And maybe (indecipherable) rebuild the community. So, this is what we are up against.

Fiskio: I remember when we were at the Alberta Walk that you got up and told the story of Africatown just to show really briefly, you know, short, and it was so---I had never heard that story. It's hard for me to understand why this is a unique place in the whole world, right? This is the only place where people can 00:28:00trace their ancestry back to Africa who were brought here against their will. And it's hard for me to understand why there hasn't been more effort---I mean the community has (indecipherable) history that's hard for me to understand why there hasn't been more.

Mrs. Jones: My idea is that it's a Black community and the city and the state they aren't concerned about preserving this community. Like I said before if the federal government recognizes it as being historical why doesn't our city and state recognize it? And why aren't they involved in trying to preserve--help us to preserve the community. This could be a tourist attraction, this could be a world tourist attraction. The last place that the slaves were brought to. I 00:29:00mean, can you imagine the business that could come to Africatown just to see a place like this? But we are constantly fighting to try to preserve this place. When our city and state is just---any business that come in that is hazardous to your health they just wanna send it to Africatown. That's terrible. That's horrible. So, we are forever--I mean, like I said before us there were people in the community that fought to keep it as long as it had and now it's just passin' down to, like, Joe and I and Reggie. Reggie's another generation that's fightin' to keep this community alive. So, it's just--it's a battle, it's an uphill battle. But we're not gonna give up. *laughs* We're not gonna give up. We're 00:30:00going to continue to fight.

Fiskio: And you're still here

Mrs. Jones: Yes, and so is Joe and Reggie and the rest of the people that's workin' with us. So, it's just, we're gonna keep fighting.

Reggie Hill: What made you stay?

Mrs. Jones: Stay where?

Reggie Hill: Here, in Africatown.

Mrs. Jones: *laughs* My husband! *all laugh* My husband. Yes, yes, and his family is still here. I guess I'm here to stay.

Fiskio: Are there things we haven't talked about today? I know we got interrupted a couple times. Are there things you would like to have a chance---any stories you'd like to have a chance to tell that we haven't asked 00:31:00you about.

Mrs. Jones: No, I think we pretty much covered everything. Just like (indecipherable) I would like to see Africatown return to what it was when I came here. I would love to see that. And I think we're on the right trail, road, to gettin' it back there because, we're workin' together and the support that we have, like from you guys. I think that we're--I think we have a good chance of bringin' some of it back. I really do. So that's what our main goal is to revive Africatown. And I think we have a good chance of doin' that.

Reggie Hill: So, what would be the ideal picture of that Africatown in your own vision?

Mrs. Jones: To see it thrivin' again. To see businesses where you don't have to go fifteen or twenty miles away to get the things that you need. Because, when I came here, whatever you needed you could get it right here in Africatown, and I would like to see that happen again. See this as a thrivin' community.

Reggie Hill: Do you think that there is anything else that would need to be added to community for it to be the global tourist attraction that you mentioned?

Mrs. Jones: Well if we can get the businesses back in Africatown and with the people that we know, like, gettin' the word out that Africatown is thrivin' 00:33:00again. I think that it would be very beneficial to the community, financially and otherwise. Because, people would want to see what has happened. Because, you know, like the Reverend said, a lot of people don't know anything about Africatown. They don't know the history. And to get it know, to get it out there in the media about this place. I think a lot of people would like to come and see where this actually happened. So that's what I think.

Mrs. Jones: It's wonderful to let the world know that this community is history. This is history right here in Africatown.

Fiskio: You mentioned you would like to see the businesses come back and then 00:34:00you also talked about some of the things that used to happen in the community like Mardi Gras or Christmas. What are some other things like that that you'd like to see come back? I know we talked a lot about the school and how important the school is.

Mrs. Jones: Well I would like to see the school return to being a productive high school because the history of that school, the first Black high school. Wouldn't it be wonderful for that to return? For it to be a high school again? That would really be---that be a drawing to the community right there. A lot of people don't even know about the history of Mobile County Training School. A lot of people don't even know that. And to get it returned as a high school, that would really be something to see. Yes, that would really be something to see. 00:35:00But we have to get more people interested in revivin' Africatown in order to get these things. And I appreciate Oberlin, that you're involved in it and letting people know about Africatown. If you get more people like you, Africatown would be known nationwide. So, that's something for us to strive for. And I think we're on the right road. You're helpin' (indecipherable) everybody is helping. I think we're on the right road to get recognition. The recognition that we deserve.

Reggie Hill: I think I'm gonna ask this, it's probably something that's been on my heart, personally. What was it then about the churches that drew everybody in, compared to where today---and it's not just unique in Africatown, a lot of churches are suffering with membership. What do you think it was at the time when you first arrived in Africatown that drew the people to fellowship together versus in today's time?

Mrs. Jones: Well, one thing that the community was larger and so the people came to the churches to worship. They came to thank the Lord for bringin' them from where they were to where they are. But then the industry in the area drove the people away. And that's why the churches are nothin' like as large as they used 00:37:00to be because the community is not here like it was. So, if we could get the community to thrivin' again then that's gonna rebuild the churches also because there will be people in the community to attend the churches. Now, most of the people that attend the churches do not live in Africatown. They've come back on Sundays and some of them don't come back at all. That's why the membership is so low. But if we can get---If we can thrive again then that'll also fill the churches up again. We really need the churches now. We really need the churches for what we are goin' thru now. You know and it's---if we can fill the community back up we can fill the churches back up. And thank the Lord for Pastor Williams 00:38:00because ever since he has been involved in this community. Tryin' to rebuild this community. So, if we rebuild the community we'll rebuild the churches also. People will come back to the community and come back to church.

Reggie Hill: You answered my question *laughs*

Fiskio: Thank you! Sorry about the technological glitches.