Ann Francis

Partial Transcript: Sara: Thank you, for your willingness to talk to me today. Our conversation will focus on your education, life experiences, and sense of meaning and well-being in your life and it should take between thirty and forty five minutes. With your permission, I would like to record our conversation [unintelligible]. Before you give your permission, I want to remind you, as noted in the consent form, the intention is to make this interview publicly available in an archive of oral histories. At the interview’s conclusion, we will both have the opportunity to sign a release form in which we’ll both give permission for the release of this interview to the public. So, with that in mind, may I have your permission now to record our conversation?

Ann: Yes, you have my permission.. And I did send you the signed forms, so you just have to do the same thing. So is this really going to be...it’ll be audio, right?

S: Yes, yeah,

A: ‘Cause I said “really,”I’m getting [unintelligible] it gets worse all the time. That’s cool, that’s fine.

S: So, this is Sara De Roy, interviewing Ann Francis, on October 19th, 2020, at about 4:30 PM West Coast time, where I am, and 7:30 PM where Ann is. And we’re going to discuss her education and the ways in which she believes it prepared her for dealing with life beyond the classroom. So, Ann can I proceed with the recorded interview.

A: Yes.

Segment Synopsis: Sara asks Ann for consent to be interviewed

Partial Transcript: S: Tell me about when and where you were born. What was your neighborhood like? Are there any sights or sounds that stay with you now? And, yeah

A: So, I was born in Rochester, New York. And I don’t… I don’t really know too much about the neighborhood or have too much memory of that neighborhood because we moved from Rochester, New York to Florida when I was four. But from the pictures it looks like [laughs] it looks like a working-class neighborhood with, I think, single family homes, and yeah. And in terms of any sounds, I really have no memory of the very early times.

S: And so that segues well into my next question, which is where else have you lived?

A: So, I, I have lived, well most of my, my growing up was in Tampa, Florida. And I lived in Tampa basically until I graduated from college in 1964, so in terms of my growing up and my memories of that growing up, I have quite a few. So I grew up on a Army base that had been decommissioned, and after it was decommissioned lots were sold and so my parents bought these lots and so they, it was a bunch of barracks buildings that were converted to a living situation. And my neighborhood was really cool because there was our building and then my two grandparents eventually moved down to Florida. And it was also, my parents had a moving and storage household, moving and storage business. And so that business was right around the corner as well. And then the neighborhood, the whole place, was basically people who didn’t have very many resources but were very creative in terms of, you know, fixing up these old barracks buildings and trying to have plots of land and little gardens. So there were all sorts of people living in this area that didn’t really have means, but you know, it was great. And we had a lot of freedom, even though Tampa was a big city, the base, the decommissioned base, offered a lot of freedom. And I would say safety, too, because you could ride your bicycle all around this place. I think that really shaped me a lot.

Segment Synopsis: Ann describes the places she lived as a child, particularly a decommissioned army base Tampa, FL.

Subjects: Florida; Former Army Base; New York; Tampa; Working-class neighborhood

Partial Transcript: S: And where do you live now? And how long have you been there for?

A: [chuckling] Ok, I live in Oberlin, and I’ve lived here five years. I lived a great part of my life in Michigan, in Lansing, MIchigan. So I’m in a retirement community here in Oberlin, Ohio.

Segment Synopsis: We discuss where Ann lives now.

Subjects: Oberlin, OH

Partial Transcript: S: And where have you worked?

A: You know, I looked at these questions and I said “Oh, really, come on.” I’ve worked in many, many different, well not many, many, but quite a few places. I was in the Peace Corps. That was my first job, not part-time job, after I graduated from college. And that was in Malaysia. Then I came back from that experience and I worked at a community college in Chattanooga, Tennessee, that was the year that Martin Luther King was assassinated. And I taught there. And then I moved to Michigan and I had several, kind of part time jobs there. One, I was a coordinator for a project called the Lansing Area Peace Council. And then I also taught again, in high school. We started an alternative education program. And then about in my mid-thirties I switched focus and I went into the factory; I worked on the line and became an apprentice pipefitter. I worked there for 20 years in the factory. I was a pipefitter for about eight years and then I went into the training department, circled all the way back around to education. Then I went on, I crossed over from being in the labor, in the union, to being in management, being a manager of joint programs, a laid-off worker program, a number of programs. And I retired from there in my mid-fifties and then I went on and had several jobs. I was a project coordinator/manager for a neighborhood center and we did various projects, like organized a health project to bring health coverage to people in the neighborhood. So that’s kind of all the jobs that I’ve had - for money [laughs]. And I’ve done some things for not money, that I would consider jobs.

Segment Synopsis: We go through Ann's work experience, from the Peace Corps to working as a teacher to working in a factory as a pipe fitter. Throughout it all, community organizing was a common theme.

Keywords: Community Organizing; Education; Factory; Jobs; Malaysia; Peace Corps; Union; Work

Partial Transcript: S: Such a good story! I know that we’ve talked about a lot of it peripherally but I don’t know if I’ve heard the full story. What did you study? You mentioned college prior to all of this, so certainly that, but also if you had other experiences that you would throw under the umbrella of your studies.

A: When I looked at that question I thought “Whoa, education.” I mean I’ve had enormous amounts of education. I’ve had a great deal of field experience. I have a PhD in human organizational and development and I have a couple masters degrees and I have a BA in political science and history. And then, like I said, I’ve had, some of the training that I’ve had or experience, education is I’ve been an activist since, well let’s just say in the mid-sixties. So starting then and then in the seventies. So I was fortunate to have a lot of education around civil disobedience and nonviolent training. So through workshops and those kinds of things. And then in the women’s movement, the lesbian movement. A lot of involvement with self-education and consciousness-raising groups. And then something that I think is quite unique - well, of course the Peace Corps, that was an amazing kind of training that we were offered. I was trained in Hawaii. It was very different than my formal educational experiences. It was a lot of hands-on kind of experience where you actually practiced what you studied. Then when I went into the factory one of the things that was so appealing about becoming a pipefitter was going through an apprentice program. You had on-the-job training as well as some formal education about pipefitting. That was a lot.

S: Neat!

A: [laughs] Oh and let’s just add in there, if you need all this, because I’ve spent a lot of time, I’m an activist and also spiritually based, I’ve done a lot of training in schools and such. I’ve had a lot of opportunities to go to conferences and have special training, you know, specific to various things. When I think about it, I think “wow, that’s a lot.” That’s really nice.

Segment Synopsis: Ann talks about her experiences with direct action and activism, and how her training in that was one form of education. Likewise, her training in the Peace Corps filled an important educational niche. On top of this, she has a PhD, a couple of Masters degrees, and a BA.

Keywords: Activism; Apprenticeship; Conferences; Experience; Human Organization and Development; Nonviolence

Partial Transcript: S: Wow. What did your education allow you to discover and nurture in terms of particular interests or strengths that have been of importance to you?

A: Well I always, when I think about, I went to Catholic school for twelve years, that was my elementary and secondary education was there. I would say that that education, I wasn’t exposed to everything that I had opportunities with later, but it did get me excited about certain kinds of learning. Well, it really got me excited about learning. I loved, I love learning. The things I didn’t know about. I think that was… that really nurtured my curiosity and got me excited and kind of pointed me. I had a teacher my senior year in high school that was a government class or something, I don’t think it was called that, but I just, she was great and I was so excited about it. That really pointed me in a direction. I don’t know if that’s exactly the question here but it did point me to my interests in college, like political science and history. Those things, both those majors. Because I had some very excellent teachers just opened up a world that I just had no clue about, and they offered explanations for things that i think that I was really misinformed about.

Segment Synopsis: At the end of her K-12 Catholic education, Ann had a particularly influential government teacher, who inspired her to study political science and history.

Keywords: Catholic School; Teachers

Partial Transcript: S: That actually plays in super nicely to the next question I’m going to ask you, which if you feel that you were helped by something special about your education, so a mentor, a teacher, or a learning experience or particular kind of education?

A: All of those. I’m still back in my undergraduate, but I would say there there were two things that really nurtured me. I was really lucky because I had started out at the University of Florida and my dad died when I was a freshman in college, so University of Florida was in Gainesville and I was in Tampa. There was a new university opening up in Tampa, which, after my dad died I came back to help my mom. So I went there. It was a brand new, there were, like, four buildings at this University of South Florida. Which it’s a huge thing now, it’s a huge university now. They had brought in all these professors who were going to be the heads of the departments, but because they were just there they were teaching, and you had access to people that usually you don’t have that much access to, the top-notch ones at that level that I discovered later on. I was so fortunate because I just had the best teachers. They were just exciting; they taught well. And this was a public university, this isn’t like some private school. And then there were also, well in the political science and even history there were very few women, so in both of those majors I gravitated to women. We formed these little study groups. It was a natural affinity, we weren’t asked to do that, we just did it. I would say there really - it was exciting to be in those study groups, we really helped each other along. So it was like a, almost an organic coming together. The other kind - this is jumping forward - I went back for my PhD when I was in my, I can’t even remember how old I was. Let’s just say mid forties, maybe late forties. And I went to a, to the Fielding Institute, which is based in California. And they have a, it’s kind of a distance learning experience, but all of the learning there is based on, you have an academic base but it’s all applied. Everything you do you study the theory and then you write a position paper but then you have to hand in an applied project. For me, I was also working in a factory at that time, and it was a life changing, like it really changed my ability to make a change in where I was working. That type of learning I think is much more effective than learning where you just study to pass your class and you don’t apply it.

Segment Synopsis: Ann went to the University of South Florida just as it opened. Students had access the "top-notch" professors, as the school was so small. There were few women in political science and history, so they naturally formed study groups. Well into her 40s, she got a PhD via an experiential distance learning program. This was while she was working in a factory, and it had a tremendous positive effect on her work there.

Keywords: Gender; Professors; Study Groups; University of Florida; Women

Partial Transcript: S: Thank you for those stories. In which ways has living by your own convictions, perhaps convictions that you have discovered by education - or, also, convictions that you have arrived at through other means - in which ways has living by your convictions played a role in your sense of well-being.

A: It is a very interesting question. I was looking at the definition of wellbeing that was in this. Living my conviction, or trying to live by the beliefs and values that I have, and aligning and trying to find people who, it’s brought me into contact with just the most wonderful people you can imagine. In terms of my wellbeing, my self-acceptance, autonomy, I don’t know. Well-being it’s created… not totally sure I understand well-being when I think about it. I think that it’s contributed sometimes to my wellbeing and sometimes it’s made me question, not feeling so secure. I don’t regret my choices in that sense, but I realize that perhaps if I had chosen a more traditional path, I might not have questioned my path so much [laughs], or questioned some choices that I made based on those convictions. Like, for example, this whole thing about going into the factory came because I was working with a group of women who were pretty committed to trying to figure out the way to get meaningful, well-paying jobs for people of color and for white women, too. And so the factory and these apprenticeships and the fact that women don’t traditionally go into these jobs had a great deal of attraction to a possibility. So my convictions, my beliefs, my understanding of what had to change led me to go into the factory, but because I didn’t have all of the information that maybe I needed [laughs] and maybe I never would have gone, you know of what that might have involved, at times it made me question the choices that I made. On the other hand it did bring me into contact with people and that I would not have ever had contact with and they enriched my life. You have to weigh it. Who knows if I had gone some other way what that would have brought. So I don’t know if that’s really what, the answer to that question, but that’s kind of how I think about it.

Segment Synopsis: Living following her convictions has brought Ann into contact with "the most wonderful people you can imagine." If she had chosen a "traditional path," she wonders if she would have questioned her path less - though she doesn't regret the path(s) she took. For example, she and several other women decided to work in the factories because they were committed to finding ways for marginalized people to work well-paying jobs.

Keywords: Connections; Paths; Wellbeing

Partial Transcript:
S: Well I think that speaks really well to the jist of what I’m curious about. Do you think that your education helped you to feel connected to others or to feel connected to yourself?

A: Definitely [laughs]. Yes. I think that the education piece provided me with information. Let’s just stick with the factory experience. Through that experience and through learning and being in community and connecting with other people who were trying to do the same thing, it was extremely helpful to, it was validating. We had made these choices and it was hard and everybody could laugh at them and it didn’t feel so personal and individual, it felt more like an understanding of a system that was very difficult to change. And, you know, it wasn’t our personal failure or that we didn’t have worth, it wasn’t necessarily successful or other people weren’t. In terms of the relationships there’s just a lot of power, and when it works, you know it doesn’t always work, but when you can find a group of people who have the same values and convictions that you do and you can work together on various activities, it’s quite empowering and it gives you a lot of meaning. It does reinforce that it’s not that your life is worth something if you don’t have that opportunity, but it does make you feel like you have some worth that you can contribute. I think that’s always a difficult thing. I think that people are of worth, whether they are given the circumstances or not to contribute. It’s certainly for me, and I look back on my life, my education, my knowledge, the skills that I developed, my convictions and values which threw me into certain things got me into some of the most meaningful things of my life and connected with people who knew a lot and were, are, great people.

Segment Synopsis: Through her various means of education, Ann was led to certain values - and a group of people who shared these values. Working in the factories together, they were able to keep up humor and morale. They knew that they were all up against big things together, and that it wasn't a personal failing. There is great power in relationship,s when you can work with groups of people with shared convictions.

Keywords: Community; Connections; Relationships; Validation; Values

Partial Transcript: S: For you, what has made life worth living?

A: [laughs] Well basically what I’ve said. I’ve had a lot of opportunities and education, education, like the formal education can be a pathway, like it’s certainly gotten me to other things. Like I could teach because I had a piece of paper, but I also had some skills attached to that piece of paper. So, what is it? Like what has made life worth living, is that what the question is?


S: Yeah.

A: Is that what the question is?

S: It is.

A: I think learning and knowing that no matter what there’s always opportunities, it’s not always clear, to either work with others or make changes so that life, the society, our communities are always healthier, are better places, are more equal places where you broaden your opportunities. Like when I went into the Peace Corps some of it was misdirected, but I really wanted to help people. Now I wouldn’t use that word now, you know ‘help,’ in that sense, you know helping people is nice but I prefer working with people together to enrich our lives, to accompany people who are really trying to change circumstances, so that gives me meaning. I’ve had a lot of opportunities for that, that makes my life worthwhile. I’ve also, being able to go different place, to travel. I’d like to do more of that. To see another part of the world and beautiful places, that, I draw on that. I can recall just being in really different places and beautiful places with different kinds of people and different cultures and different food and that makes my life worthwhile. Then of course with education having been able to earn decent wages has given me an opportunity to live in this retirement community, it’s made myself and my partner much happier that we’re not struggling for insurance and things like that, so that gives my life, it gives me a better life and an opportunity to experience wellbeing.

S: Is there anything else you want to put out that we haven’t reached?

A: I think it’s fine. Is there anything that you are curious about?

S: I feel like for what we’re going for I got a really good encapsulation of your story.

A: Ok

S: Thank you so much

Segment Synopsis: Opportunities to travel and work with others. For example, Ann went into the PeaceCorps with the intention of 'helping people' and, while that is not the framework through which she now looks at things, accompanying people in work towards changing circumstances still gives her meaning. Seeing and experiencing different people and cultures has given her life meaning. Having the privilege of gaining an education and being able to earn good wages has given her and her partner a more comfortable life, and thus the opportunity to experience wellbeing.

Keywords: Education; Financial Stability; Opportunites; Travel